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Old 12-31-2009, 09:14 AM
 
4,437 posts, read 5,964,557 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Yes, God "gave them over" to sexual impurity, but I noticed you didn't quote the very next verses
Well by all means lets look at it in its entirety..

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Amen. Done. Next.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Very first sentence. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. End of sentence. To add additional information the scripture then and only then says "Even their women....." etc etc.

Your theory that Paul is speaking only to homosexual acts is simply proven incorrect. Your theory is an afterthought. The first thing the scripture in question mentions has nothing to do with homosexuality and homosexual acts are only mention as an afterthought as supporting evidence to Pauls supposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
If this is describing homosexual conduct, then the context of this passage clearly teaches that it is wrong, opposed to God and contrary to nature. If it is not describing homosexual conduct, then what, in fact, is it describing? I've asked you this before, but strangely you have not answered.
Not it clearly teaches that any shameful lusting is wrong (hetero or homo) as I've easily pointed out that the first part of the scripture in Paul's letter makes no distinction. Paul talks about the shameful lusts and then as an ASIDE says "Even their women..." sentence almost as additional supporting evidence. An afterthought.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
It matters completely because the specific type of sinful behavior is mentioned.
Oh I agree. Paul mentions shameful lusts first and we are to take that to mean hetero shameful lusts. Unless of course you believe all shameful lusts in the text are meant to be read at face value as homosexual shameful lusts. Your theory holds no water. I'll paste it again for you here..


Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
It's more than just sexual immorality in general; Paul describes it specifically.
No.. incorrect. Absolutely incorrect. Again read the scripture in context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
It's tough to believe that you don't see it there
Yes shocking that two people can have different perspectives on scripture. Amazing. Call 911. First time in history. You choose to damn an entire population of people on your misunderstanding of scripture. I don't. Its quite simple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
As I asked you in an earlier post, what type of behavior is Paul describing when he said, "For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; 27and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error" ?
There is actually two ways to look at this that I can admit to.

1. That he is speaking to homosexuals

or

2. That is he is speaking to heterosexuals going against their natural inclination and performing homosexual acts. That would be going against their nature. Just as it would go against the nature of a homosexual to engage in heterosexual acts.

I don't know which is right but it doesn't really matter to me for the reasons I've listed above. The passage has to do with lusts (hetero or homo).. doesn't matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Also, I have a couple of other questions to ask. You've claimed that Paul was writing to Christians in Rome who were lapsing back into sexual immorality because of their past experiences in pagan rites. The only evidence you seem to have cited for this so far is external evidence--the general historical fact that people in the Mediterranean region did such things.
No I provided evidence that you seemed to not care to read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
That, however, is not nearly enough.
Right.. if thats what I had done. But I didn't do that. I provided scripture to back it up. Thats twice now.

Last edited by bigthirsty; 12-31-2009 at 10:08 AM..

 
Old 12-31-2009, 09:50 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 8,410,506 times
Reputation: 1057
Not all lust is shameful.

Being married and lusting after my wife carries no wrong doing.

The un natural affection of women to women is in regards to lesbianism.

Homo-sex is not only a sin, it is an abomination and carries a heavy penalty... here and here after.
There is zero chance of natural procreation, nor mental purity.

The homosexual community is filled with pain, mental illness, physical disease, and moral corruption... the rates are exponentially higher than in a Natural relationship based in monogomy and Judeo-Christian attitudes.


godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 12-31-2009, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Hot-Houston Texas
20,031 posts, read 20,888,629 times
Reputation: 28073
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Not all lust is shameful.

Being married and lusting after my wife carries no wrong doing.

The un natural affection of women to women is in regards to lesbianism.

Homo-sex is not only a sin, it is an abomination and carries a heavy penalty... here and here after.
There is zero chance of natural procreation, nor mental purity.

The homosexual community is filled with pain, mental illness, physical disease, and moral corruption... the rates are exponentially higher than in a Natural relationship based in monogomy and Judeo-Christian attitudes.


godspeed,

freedom
Agree
 
Old 12-31-2009, 10:08 AM
 
Location: Colorado
10,010 posts, read 12,151,529 times
Reputation: 2029
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Not all lust is shameful.

Being married and lusting after my wife carries no wrong doing.

The un natural affection of women to women is in regards to lesbianism.

Homo-sex is not only a sin, it is an abomination and carries a heavy penalty... here and here after.
There is zero chance of natural procreation, nor mental purity.

The homosexual community is filled with pain, mental illness, physical disease, and moral corruption... the rates are exponentially higher than in a Natural relationship based in monogomy and Judeo-Christian attitudes.


godspeed,

freedom
Pain caused by judgemental you know whats
Mental illness due to depression caused by judgemental you know whats
disease, AIDS? Well that is not a gay disease if you didnt know it, neither are STD's
Moral corruption, set by Judgemental you know whats
 
Old 12-31-2009, 10:15 AM
 
4,437 posts, read 5,964,557 times
Reputation: 1347
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Not all lust is shameful.
I've made the necessary edit for your review. I'm sure you could have seen what I meant to say as I mentioned shameful lusts 6 times in my post before the edit. Good eye though.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Homo-sex is not only a sin, it is an abomination and carries a heavy penalty... here and here after.
There is zero chance of natural procreation
Interesting.. does that mean a woman with her tubes tied having sex with her husband also has the same penalty.. I mean there is zero chance of natural procreation that way too.. just though it interesting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
The homosexual community is filled with pain, mental illness, physical disease, and moral corruption...
And the heterosexual community isn't?

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
The rates are exponentially higher than in a Natural relationship based in monogomy and Judeo-Christian attitudes.
I know you've sourced it before.. can you source it again for anyone new to the board?
 
Old 12-31-2009, 11:03 AM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,737,778 times
Reputation: 728
Seriously.......this is a no brainer for a true Christian.
 
Old 12-31-2009, 11:04 AM
 
4,437 posts, read 5,964,557 times
Reputation: 1347
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Seriously.......this is a no brainer for a true Christian.
Fundy I couldn't agree more!
 
Old 12-31-2009, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Comunistafornia, and working to get out ASAP!
1,958 posts, read 3,457,603 times
Reputation: 902
Does the Bible say homosexuality is a sin?

For the 10,000 time YES.
 
Old 12-31-2009, 12:30 PM
 
699 posts, read 534,675 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigthirsty View Post
Well by all means lets look at it in its entirety..

Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Amen. Done. Next.

26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
Very first sentence. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. End of sentence. To add additional information the scripture then and only then says "Even their women....." etc etc.
Correct. This "additional information" goes into detail about the homosexual lust and the behavior that resulted from it. So even if Paul had in mind heterosexual lust earlier in the passage, that is a separate matter, since in your own words you call this "additional information." Clearly here he is describing homosexual acts. Those acts, and the lust that drives them, are described as wrong.


Quote:
Yes shocking that two people can have different perspectives on scripture. Amazing. Call 911. First time in history. You choose to damn an entire population of people on your misunderstanding of scripture. I don't. Its quite simple.
The ad hominem tactic simply does not work--trying to make me look like the cruel, merciless person who goes around condemning innocent people. I'm not damning anyone. That's God's prerogative. I'm simply discussing what the text says about a particular topic, so stop judging. And I'm not misunderstanding scripture. It's as plain as day, unless the activity described in vv. 26-27 is not homosexual conduct. Then, and only then, could we say that this passage does not condemn homosexuality.



Quote:
There is actually two ways to look at this that I can admit to.

1. That he is speaking to homosexuals

or

2. That is he is speaking to heterosexuals going against their natural inclination and performing homosexual acts. That would be going against their nature.
Correct. And these homosexual acts are declared to be wrong. If they are wrong for heterosexuals who turn to homosexuality, they are wrong. Sin is sin, regardless of the reason it is committed. Homosexual behavior is not okay for some but sinful for others. This leads to my next point:

Quote:
Just as it would go against the nature of a homosexual to engage in heterosexual acts.
Here you seem to be alluding to the modern idea that homosexuality is inborn and, therefore, perfectly natural to those who are born that way. Has this been actually, scientifically proven? Has some kind of special gene or DNA code been found that makes homosexuality just as natural and inevitable for some people as having two legs, two eyes, ten fingers, etc.?

Also, if this is influencing your interpretation of this text, let me say that it violates an important hermeneutical principle, namely, that the text cannot mean something for us today that it could not have meant to the original audience. Since the theory that some are born homosexuals and cannot help it is a modern idea, it's impossible that Paul could have had this in mind when he wrote this epistle. He wouldn't have thought of it, and the Romans he wrote to would not have interpreted the text that way.

Therefore, your first view above must be the correct one.

Quote:
The passage has to do with lusts (hetero or homo).. doesn't matter.
And the homosexual lust, and the conduct that arises from it, are clearly condemned.



Quote:
No I provided evidence that you seemed to not care to read.
Really? I don't remember seeing any internal evidence that makes it clear that the Roman Christians themselves had at one time been involved in pagan sexual rituals. Where does Paul even hint that the people he is writing to had ever done this? Yes, you quoted the text having to do with idolatry, but this does not say anything definitive about the Roman Christians themselves since he is referring to idolatrous practices that predated the Romans. He never says "You Romans did this" or anything similar. Furthermore, he makes no mention that there is any problem at all in the Roman church to which he is writing, as is his practice in other epistles in which he addressed a problem. There simply is no internal evidence to support your supposition. You are starting with a general historical fact--that pagan sex rituals took place in the Mediterranean--and then imposing that on the biblical text, jumping to the conclusion that the Roman Christians had done this as well. Your reasoning goes like this:

1. There were various pagan sex rituals going on in the Mediterranean.
2. Paul encountered these during his missionary journeys.
3. Rome was a part of this geographical area.
4. The Christians Paul wrote to were Romans.
5. Therefore, the Roman Christians to whom Paul wrote had taken part in these pagan rituals and were lapsing back into that behavior.

The conclusion, 5, does not and cannot follow from the previous premises.

You are not letting the text speak for itself.
 
Old 12-31-2009, 12:33 PM
 
699 posts, read 534,675 times
Reputation: 86
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Homo-sex is not only a sin, it is an abomination and carries a heavy penalty... here and here after.
Quite right. God has revealed clearly that He regards homosexual conduct as sinful.
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