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Old 12-31-2009, 12:22 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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I do not know if this is the mentality or belief of a few here, but if any hold to the idea that the Gospel of the Kingdom of what Christ has preached was not the same as the Gospel of grace that Paul was preaching: it's time to go to the word to set the matter straight for they are one and the same.

A few may hold to the idea that people were being born again during the time that Christ was preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

People were not being born again before Christ had died on the cross. What Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:3-8 is not to be excluded from what He continued to talk about to Nicodemus in John 3:9-21.

John 3: 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now note the question Nicodemus posed as Jesus next answer is on expounding on what He had just said prior to Nicodemus.

John 3:9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

They had to be born of the Spirit, and the only way they can be born of the Spirit is when they believe in the Son of Man after He had been lifted up as Jesus stipulated to Nicodemus in John 3:14-15 on how one is saved and thus born again. Jesus did teach the Gospel of grace as the Gospel of the Kingdom is one and the same.
So Jesus spoke the same gospel that Paul spoke.

If people were born again before He was crucified, then there is a problem with that view, proving it to be false.

Jesus imparted the Holy Spirit to the disciples including Judas Iscariot:

Matthew 10: 1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

But yet, Judas Iscariot was lost so he was not saved to begin with because Jesus had not risen yet. That means, none of the disciples were saved yet either.

John 17: 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

When Jesus came to the Father, then their joy was to be fulfilled.

Matthew 9: 17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

No one was born again before Christ had ascended to Heaven at the right hand of God the Father because they were not bought with a price yet to become a new creature in Christ so that they can be the new bottles able to hold the new wine, which is the promise of the permament indwelling Holy Spirit.

The fact that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit again unto the disciples after His resurrection in John 20:19-22 only to instruct them to wait in Luke 23:45-53 for the promise of the permament indwelling Holy Ghost, as this promise was given in John 14th chapter by the stipulation on when He was no longer physically present with them, proves that the Gospel Paul spoke is the same Gospel that Jesus gave.

Galatians 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

If Paul had said this, how could there not be contentions between Paul and the disciples that knew Jesus if Paul was preaching another Gospel?

Speaking to brethrens, Paul had to have spoken the same Gospel in order for the Jews and the Gentiles to be considered the same.

1 Corinthians 1: 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So the Gospel of the Kingdom is the same Gospel of Grace for they are one and the same.
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Old 12-31-2009, 02:01 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,138,148 times
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So the Gospel of the Kingdom is the same Gospel of Grace for they are one and the same.
How is it that the Kingdom of Heaven, or Kingdom of God are the exact same thing as the Gospel of Grace?

Actually, it cannot be. The Kingdom has always been here, since the beginning. It was just waiting in limbo from prior to Saul, the king,,to Jesus THE KING. But even then, there were still subjects to this Kingdom. We read about them in the Word. Even David served the King, even while he was a king.
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Old 12-31-2009, 03:50 PM
 
17,962 posts, read 13,667,767 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enow View Post
I do not know if this is the mentality or belief of a few here, but if any hold to the idea that the Gospel of the Kingdom of what Christ has preached was not the same as the Gospel of grace that Paul was preaching: it's time to go to the word to set the matter straight for they are one and the same.

A few may hold to the idea that people were being born again during the time that Christ was preaching the gospel of the kingdom.

People were not being born again before Christ had died on the cross. What Jesus said to Nicodemus in John 3:3-8 is not to be excluded from what He continued to talk about to Nicodemus in John 3:9-21.

John 3: 3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Now note the question Nicodemus posed as Jesus next answer is on expounding on what He had just said prior to Nicodemus.

John 3:9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

They had to be born of the Spirit, and the only way they can be born of the Spirit is when they believe in the Son of Man after He had been lifted up as Jesus stipulated to Nicodemus in John 3:14-15 on how one is saved and thus born again. Jesus did teach the Gospel of grace as the Gospel of the Kingdom is one and the same.
So Jesus spoke the same gospel that Paul spoke.

If people were born again before He was crucified, then there is a problem with that view, proving it to be false.

Jesus imparted the Holy Spirit to the disciples including Judas Iscariot:

Matthew 10: 1And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. 2Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; 3Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; 4Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. 5These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: 6But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. 7And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

But yet, Judas Iscariot was lost so he was not saved to begin with because Jesus had not risen yet. That means, none of the disciples were saved yet either.

John 17: 11And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

When Jesus came to the Father, then their joy was to be fulfilled.

Matthew 9: 17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

No one was born again before Christ had ascended to Heaven at the right hand of God the Father because they were not bought with a price yet to become a new creature in Christ so that they can be the new bottles able to hold the new wine, which is the promise of the permament indwelling Holy Spirit.

The fact that Jesus breathed the Holy Spirit again unto the disciples after His resurrection in John 20:19-22 only to instruct them to wait in Luke 23:45-53 for the promise of the permament indwelling Holy Ghost, as this promise was given in John 14th chapter by the stipulation on when He was no longer physically present with them, proves that the Gospel Paul spoke is the same Gospel that Jesus gave.

Galatians 1: 6I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:1Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me. 2For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

If Paul had said this, how could there not be contentions between Paul and the disciples that knew Jesus if Paul was preaching another Gospel?

Speaking to brethrens, Paul had to have spoken the same Gospel in order for the Jews and the Gentiles to be considered the same.

1 Corinthians 1: 21For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. 22For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. 25Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. 26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29That no flesh should glory in his presence. 30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

So the Gospel of the Kingdom is the same Gospel of Grace for they are one and the same.
Are you sayng that you don't believe that people were saved before Christ went to the cross?

Are you attempting to distinquish between being born again and being saved?

Did you actually say that none of the disciples were saved until Christ was resurrected?

Are you implying that no one in human history was saved before the time that Christ went to the Cross?

Are you confusing being born of the Spirit (regeneration) with being indwelt by the Holy Spirit? (The indwelling of the Spirit by the way belongs only to the chuch-age believer. This is different from the ministry of enduement given to a few believers during the age of Israel.)

Are you implying that salvation throughout human history has not always been through faith in the Messiah as He was presented at a particular time in history? In other words, are you saying that people in the Old Testament weren't saved by placing their faith in the still to come in the future, Messiah (Jesus Christ)?

Or am I misunderstanding what you said?
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Old 01-01-2010, 09:21 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
How is it that the Kingdom of Heaven, or Kingdom of God are the exact same thing as the Gospel of Grace?

Actually, it cannot be. The Kingdom has always been here, since the beginning. It was just waiting in limbo from prior to Saul, the king,,to Jesus THE KING. But even then, there were still subjects to this Kingdom. We read about them in the Word. Even David served the King, even while he was a king.
John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

James 2:5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Being born again into the kingdom as a citizen, thus receiving the seal of adoption to be received in God's House is what I am talking about by the grace of God.
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Southern California
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The Kingdom of God is that part of Heaven, called the Celestial Heavens, where people reside who have been born again by the grace of God... this grace is God's Divine Love, or His very essence, and it's delivered to us by his messenger, the Holy Spirit.

The Kingdom of Heaven is that part of Heaven below the Kingdom of God... its where everyone else is, including those aspiring to reach the higher Celestial spheres... where God's Divine Love reigns supreme.
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:04 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Enow View Post
John 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

James 2:5Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Matthew 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Being born again into the kingdom as a citizen, thus receiving the seal of adoption to be received in God's House is what I am talking about by the grace of God.
Ahh, so you think "world" means like the earth. IC now why you would think the way you do. Well, it doesn't. It means the order of government that controls or rules usually by written decrees like a constitiution. We like in our world called the USA. Understand? This was the normal usage at the time. Earth in the Word is 'ge. That word means the earth. Or the territorial boundries.

So look at your verses in a different light.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

My kingdom is NOT of this world. What world is that? The Israelite-Roman world. He was free, completely. Had He appealed to either the Israelite or Roman government, this would have constituted nothing short of a treaty. As it was, instead He pronounced judgment upon their harlot system. It would be left to them desolate.

James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

This verse is taken completely out of context. He is dealing with prejudices in the assembly. And further more, notice the kingdom is promised, but not automatically given. Why is this? Because HE leads you there, in His time when you are ready.
If that were not the case, the the road would be wide to enter, but as it is, it is narrow. Only theives and robbers try to enter by some other way.


Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And it was. In 70AD their end came. Their world ended. And it was a witness to the other nations of the fulfillment of His Words.

Matthew 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Exactly. Only the King can say this. And only when the time is right. You think this is only after you are dead? Interesting. If the Kingdom existed at the onset from the foundation of the world, then why must one wait to die to enter? Answer: they don't.

Eternity doesn't start the moment you die. Eternity doesn't start at all. It just IS. You either ARE, or you AREN'T.
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Old 01-01-2010, 10:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009 View Post
The Kingdom of God is that part of Heaven, called the Celestial Heavens, where people reside who have been born again by the grace of God... this grace is God's Divine Love, or His very essence, and it's delivered to us by his messenger, the Holy Spirit.

The Kingdom of Heaven is that part of Heaven below the Kingdom of God... its where everyone else is, including those aspiring to reach the higher Celestial spheres... where God's Divine Love reigns supreme.
Kingdom of heaven and Kingdom of God are the same thing.

Mat 21:43
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to EVERYONE bringing forth the fruits thereof.

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Old 01-01-2010, 11:32 AM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Are you sayng that you don't believe that people were saved before Christ went to the cross?
John 3:13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

1 Corinthians 15: 20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Matthew 27: 52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

Ephesians 4: 7But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Jesus gave the parable of the rich man and the beggar named, Lazarus. In that parable, He referred Abraham's bosom which is also known as Paradise, as being able to be seen across a great chasm from those in hell. Why were the OT saints there? Why did they have to wait for Him?

Hebrews 10: 10By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, 16This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; 17And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. 18Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin. 19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

Quote:
Are you attempting to distinquish between being born again and being saved?
No. I am correcting by the grace of God that whomever believes that the gospel that Jesus taught was the kingdom gospel and not the same gospel of grace that Paul spoke is wrong because they are one and the same.

Quote:
Did you actually say that none of the disciples were saved until Christ was resurrected?
If no one can lose their salvation, then how could Judas Iscariot be lost?

Matthew 9: 17Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

It was until Christ had gone to the Father that the joy of the remaining disciples was fulfilled.

John 17: 12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 13And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

Quote:
Are you implying that no one in human history was saved before the time that Christ went to the Cross?
I cosidered saved as one bought with a price and sealed as His in order for them to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

I am not sure how anyone can say that the OT saints were saved when they were waiting for the promised Messaih in hope still. It was that hope that reserved them into Paradise, but I do not know what you would call that when they are waiting to be saved: certainly, they were not lost.

Quote:
Are you confusing being born of the Spirit (regeneration) with being indwelt by the Holy Spirit? (The indwelling of the Spirit by the way belongs only to the chuch-age believer. This is different from the ministry of enduement given to a few believers during the age of Israel.)
Are we talking about being saved though? Judas Iscariot was given the same ministry of enduement in Matthew 10th chapter. His joy was not fulfilled because he killed himself, never realizing about the hope in Jesus Christ.

Quote:
Are you implying that salvation throughout human history has not always been through faith in the Messiah as He was presented at a particular time in history? In other words, are you saying that people in the Old Testament weren't saved by placing their faith in the still to come in the future, Messiah (Jesus Christ)?
I am not certain how you would call that as being saved when they were in Paradise awaiting in hope for the promised Messiah to come. Again, they were not lost, but I am not sure what you would call that when they were considered captives in captivity in Paradise.

And the oddest thing about this coined phrase is where Paradise is now located as if the OT were taken with it as if to await in Paradise which is now in Heaven for the first harvest at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb as then they shall receive their first inheritance along with the NT saints that remained chaste to Him.

2 Corinthians 12: 1It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord. 2I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven. 3And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth 4How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Quote:
Or am I misunderstanding what you said?
If you have any verses on how the OT saints were considered saved even though they were in Paradise, feel free to edify cause I do not know what you would call that state when they have not been bought with a price and sealed as His yet to be "preserved" as in "saved".

And no, they were not lost: but yet they were waiting in Paradise for the hope of the Messiah to come to be saved.

Being born again into the kingdom as a citizen, thus receiving the seal of adoption to be received in God's House is what I am talking about by the grace of God.
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Old 01-01-2010, 12:05 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Ahh, so you think "world" means like the earth. IC now why you would think the way you do. Well, it doesn't. It means the order of government that controls or rules usually by written decrees like a constitiution. We like in our world called the USA. Understand? This was the normal usage at the time. Earth in the Word is 'ge. That word means the earth. Or the territorial boundries.
Isn't territorial boundaries an extrapolation as in an assumption of what "ge" is referring to? Earth can very well mean just earth like the world.

Quote:
So look at your verses in a different light.

John 18:36
Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

My kingdom is NOT of this world. What world is that? The Israelite-Roman world. He was free, completely. Had He appealed to either the Israelite or Roman government, this would have constituted nothing short of a treaty. As it was, instead He pronounced judgment upon their harlot system. It would be left to them desolate.


Again, are you not assuming Jesus is just referring to territorial boundaries?

John 8: 23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Quote:
James 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?

This verse is taken completely out of context. He is dealing with prejudices in the assembly. And further more, notice the kingdom is promised, but not automatically given. Why is this? Because HE leads you there, in His time when you are ready.
If that were not the case, the the road would be wide to enter, but as it is, it is narrow. Only theives and robbers try to enter by some other way.


Veering way off here as far as context goes, but I'll try to follow and lead it back to the point of discussion with the Lord's help.

The verse was given for reference to the kingdom not being of this world in response to your former quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ
How is it that the Kingdom of Heaven, or Kingdom of God are the exact same thing as the Gospel of Grace?

Actually, it cannot be. The Kingdom has always been here, since the beginning. It was just waiting in limbo from prior to Saul, the king,,to Jesus THE KING. But even then, there were still subjects to this Kingdom. We read about them in the Word. Even David served the King, even while he was a king.



Quote:

Matthew 24:14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

And it was. In 70AD their end came. Their world ended. And it was a witness to the other nations of the fulfillment of His Words.
Ah. Preterism. Well, I see a double prophesy in that but let us not get off topic.

The Gospel of the Kingdom that Jesus preached is the same Gospel of Grace that Paul preached in how one is to be saved.

Quote:
Matthew 25:34Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Exactly. Only the King can say this. And only when the time is right. You think this is only after you are dead? Interesting. If the Kingdom existed at the onset from the foundation of the world, then why must one wait to die to enter? Answer: they don't.


To inherit the kingdom now, one must do so by the Blood of Jesus and sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit.

It is that same kingdom that those judged by the standard in Matthew 25th chapter in relation to that parable from which Matthew 25:34 came from is how those after the milleniel reign of Christ will be judged to enter that very same kingdom... since Jesus Christ is sitting on that throne as I take it to mean the great white throne judgment.

Quote:
Eternity doesn't start the moment you die. Eternity doesn't start at all. It just IS. You either ARE, or you AREN'T.
We had a start, yet we are to inherit eternal life though Jesus Christ Whom has no start, thus by putting on the Lord Jesus Christ, we shall be able to live with God for ever because of His righteosuness and His faithfulness. God with us comes from His name & the power of His name.

Sinners had a start, but since God's Judgment is eternal, then so is the lake of fire as sinners shall suffer for all eternity.

Since the thread is about those confusing the Gospel of grace that Paul preached as if he was preaching another gospel than what Jesus had preached, I am, by His grace, stating that they are one and the same, so let's leave preterism out of this thread from now on, okay?
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Old 01-01-2010, 12:52 PM
 
Location: In God's Hand
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Originally Posted by SoCalAngel2009 View Post
The Kingdom of God is that part of Heaven, called the Celestial Heavens, where people reside who have been born again by the grace of God... this grace is God's Divine Love, or His very essence, and it's delivered to us by his messenger, the Holy Spirit.

The Kingdom of Heaven is that part of Heaven below the Kingdom of God... its where everyone else is, including those aspiring to reach the higher Celestial spheres... where God's Divine Love reigns supreme.
The Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are one and the same.

As Jesus was speaking of a future event after He had gone to the right hand of God the Father, believers were to be reminded of this truth.

Luke 17:20And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Mark 4:11And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Mark 4: 30And he said, Whereunto shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it? 31It is like a grain of mustard seed, which, when it is sown in the earth, is less than all the seeds that be in the earth: 32But when it is sown, it groweth up, and becometh greater than all herbs, and shooteth out great branches; so that the fowls of the air may lodge under the shadow of it.

Mark 14:25Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God.

Luke 13: 28There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. 29And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. 30And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

As the kingdom of God resides within me as my body is the Temple of the Holy Spirit, I await by His grace as He is keeping me from falling as I place my faith in Him to present me faultless when He comes for me to bring me as a vessel unto honour in God's House to His glory at the pre tribulational rapture event.

Matthew 13: 33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.

From this singular verse parable above, the Lord has shown me that there will be three harvests making up the whole of the Kingdom of heaven.

The first before the great tribulation where the Marriage Supper of the Lamb will be as NT saints are presnted as the chaste bride along with the OT saints... which together shall be known as the firstfruits of the resurrection.

Then you have the harvest at the end of the great tribulation at His coming as those foolish virgins and prodigal sons shall be presented as vessels unto dishonour in God's House.... as the foolish virgins will be given robes for voiding faith in Him which is the wedding garment and the prodigal sons will need their robes washed clean by the Blood of the Lamb for giving up their first inheritance for wild living.

Then you have that third harvest at some time after the milleniel reign of Christ.

All three harvests will make up the whole of the Kingdom of Heaven.

1 Corinthians 15: 23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

By His grace, may you see how the Kingdom of God and the Kingdom of Heaven are one and the same.
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