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Old 01-07-2010, 02:16 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
4,151 posts, read 8,663,382 times
Reputation: 3299

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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
God's Church needs to do this?

Why?

Where does it say all of this in the Bible?

The Bible is our standard.



You got it right though:
"Many Christian churches and leaders have concluded"

Yes they certainly have.

Men have decided, and it was so.

What else needs to be said?

Men who control you, decided that they want your money. It has nothing to do with God.

Trying to bring the Bible into is clearly pointless.
The holier than thou Christian game is getting old. Churches grow to accommodate the masses of people that attend. You rarely see Churches building large buildings in HOPES of having more people show up.

Most of them build a new building when they've outgrown theirs. This is a bad thing? More and more people coming to hear God's word is a bad thing? I praise God every time I'm stuck in traffic getting out of Church, because that means so many more souls are saved.

There are many ways to worship God, and one of those is through a Church. A Church that offers people a place to gather with other Christians and grow their Faith. A place that we can go learn more about our Lord. A place to fellowship and lead others to Christ.

It's not about money. But money IS a conduit to bringing others to Christ. Providing places for them to go is a great thing. There are MANY Churches that meet in gyms, schools, etc., and that's a great thing. But there are MANY that have outgrown them and needed a bigger facility than they could rent. And believe it or not, it takes staff to run a Church. It takes staff to make sure that the Church is able to keep its doors open and running smoothly. Without support, the Church would collapse and that'd mean less people would be reached.

Enough with the holier than thou stuff, because that's pretty judgmental, and if you'd like, I can point you to God's Word and what He says about that. If someone is reaching people for Jesus, I doubt Jesus is too concerned with their methods.
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:22 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,519,093 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevcrawford View Post
This is the problem with so many people's thinking. You don't understand the power of God. You don't understand how HUGE he is.

I've got nothing but sympathy for a single mother struggling to make ends meet. But there are many that find their way out of that situation not by hoarding the little bit they do have, but by TRUSTING that God will always meet your needs and tithing off the little they have.

This is a TRUST issue with God. You either trust that He will make sure all your needs are provided for, or you don't.
You trust God, or you don't. Period.
The problem is,you only trust God to a certain point. You don`t trust God enough to sell everything you have and then TRUST him to take care of you. You don`t want to lose your house or creature comforts that support the flesh. Because that`s really putting your faith out there on a limb. But you`re only willingly to trust God with a certain portion as long as you keep enough to make sure you have all you need and more.
Money can be a curse. Just like physical beauty can be a curse. I no longer want money or material things. You tell me to tithe and that will change my financial situation. Just the opposite.I`ve become much closer to God now that I don`t have the material possessions that I once had. It can be a very liberating and freeing experience.
Again,you say tithe and that will change my financial circumstance,which proves what forest was talking about. It`s not about changing my financial circumstance or gaining more money or material possessions. That is not why you tithe. I don`t want more physical possessions. I don`t want to work my butt off trying to make more. God wants your heart,not your money. He doesn`t need it. He already has it. Perhaps instead of working more trying to get more, which would be the only reason to work more, give more of your time to charity. Instead of spending those hours working to get more,maybe we should spend those hours studying God`s word or helping those in need. I don`t want more. I don`t need more. I include myself in that catergory. Maybe I should sell some of my possessions and trust God more.
I just always find it ironic,that people will talk about how much they trust God,etc. But they are not willing to sell everything and trust God. I guess that would be trusting too much. They will say,but then I won`t have anything. Yeah,that`s the point. Trust God to take care of your needs. Doesn`t Jesus say don`t worry about tomorrow,tomorrow will take care of itself. But we still hord money for our retirement,don`t we? Why? Because we are worried about tomorrow. We are afraid we won`t have enough to live on tomorrow. Don`t worry about people starving today. Because YOU need money to live on 30 years from now.
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,739 posts, read 7,288,133 times
Reputation: 1951
Let's just suppose for a minute that the LAW of tithing is still in force today (it's not, but let's just suppose it is, for the sake of this example)

If you are tithing 10% of your income, who are you tithing it to? A local church? A pastor? A TV ministry? The Bible says the tithe was to be given to the Levite Priesthood, to support them, because they could not work a regular job while serving in the temple on a daily basis.

Is the person you are giving your tithe to a Levite? Are they a temple priest? If not, you are violating the Bible law right there! It is not lawful to give the tithe to anyone else. Only the Levitical Priesthood was to receive the tithe, and nobody else, period. Not a pastor, not a church, not a TV ministry, not anybody else!

Problem here, IMO, is so many people look at the Bible and say ALL of the rules and laws in it apply to us today. The truth is a little deeper than that:
Parts of the Bible applied to people living under the Old Covenant, parts of it apply to us today, who live under the New Covenant, and parts of it apply to everyone, regardless of the time-frame they lived in. Why is that concept so hard to understand? When you read the Bible, ask God for wisdom on whether a particular passage applies to you today, or was it for some other people, or nation, from times past?

All of the above said, what is it then that we today ARE supposed to be doing? The New Testament is full of examples, but for some reason modern churches just don't seem to "get it"...they just aren't seeing it. We are to be GIVING. And giving generously, from the heart, and not because of some ancient law, pertaining to another people, living under a different covenant, that says "you gotta". So many churches love to resurrect that old law and tell you "you have to tithe...the Bible says so!". No, it does not.
And they will pass that shiny offering plate around in full view of everyone, to make sure you feel badly if you don't comply...

There is little joy in giving simply to meet the demands of an archaic law. It is like paying taxes to the IRS: there's absolutely no joy in it, but you are left in "good standing". Whereas, there is tremendous joy in giving out of the heart, with the freedom that comes in serving the Lord Jesus Christ.

Q: Who are you serving: a man-made church hierarchy that constantly demands money of you, and (falsely) says "the Bible says so", or the Lord God?

Story: 30-some years ago, I was going to a church and paying "tithes" faithfully...like for years and years. At the time, I believed it was the right thing to do. Then along came a Christian female friend who was homeless, and had a very young child to raise as well. She was broke...practically penniless. I was very poor myself, so limited in what I could do personally. I went to the church elders and asked if the church could help. They flatly refused! They refused to give even a dime. Does this say anything about where their heart was? They wanted money, for years and years, as much as they could get, but did not really want to help people that were in need. That person ended up in the wrong side of town, in a seedy old trailer court, and shortly thereafter someone broke in and beat and raped her. She gave up believing in "my church", and in what basic Bible I had been trying to teach her, and joined a cult...

Bud
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:33 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
4,151 posts, read 8,663,382 times
Reputation: 3299
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
The problem is,you only trust God to a certain point. You don`t trust God enough to sell everything you have and then TRUST him to take care of you. You don`t want to lose your house or creature comforts that support the flesh. Because that`s really putting your faith out there on a limb. But you`re only willingly to trust God with a certain portion as long as you keep enough to make sure you have all you need and more.
Money can be a curse. Just like physical beauty can be a curse. I no longer want money or material things. You tell me to tithe and that will change my financial situation. Just the opposite.I`ve become much closer to God now that I don`t have the material possessions that I once had. It can be a very liberating and freeing experience.
Again,you say tithe and that will change my financial circumstance,which proves what forest was talking about. It`s not about changing my financial circumstance or gaining more money or material possessions. That is not why you tithe. I don`t want more physical possessions. I don`t want to work my butt off trying to make more. God wants your heart,not your money. He doesn`t need it. He already has it. Perhaps instead of working more trying to get more, which would be the only reason to work more, give more of your time to charity. Instead of spending those hours working to get more,maybe we should spend those hours studying God`s word or helping those in need. I don`t want more. I don`t need more. I include myself in that catergory. Maybe I should sell some of my possessions and trust God more.
I just always find it ironic,that people will talk about how much they trust God,etc. But they are not willing to sell everything and trust God. I guess that would be trusting too much. They will say,but then I won`t have anything. Yeah,that`s the point. Trust God to take care of your needs. Doesn`t Jesus say don`t worry about tomorrow,tomorrow will take care of itself. But we still hord money for our retirement,don`t we? Why? Because we are worried about tomorrow. We are afraid we won`t have enough to live on tomorrow. Don`t worry about people starving today. Because YOU need money to live on 30 years from now.
I trust God enough to believe what he says in his word. Again, it's not about money. If you're close to God, that's awesome. Don't try to call yourself a better Christian because you're poor though.

Yes, money is dangerous, because it can lead to corruption. But it doesn't HAVE to. Much good can be done with much money.

Jesus teaches us to be good stewards of His money (it IS His). He didn't teach us to be fools with it. If we have money, we're to bless people with it.

As for selling everything to follow God, if I truly feel that God is calling me to do that, I'll do it in a second. But some random poster on a message board trying to justify his lack of funds isn't someone I'm going to look to for spiritual advice.

Jesus gives all of us gifts and abilities. Some of us have money. Some don't. Regardless of how much we have, we're supposed to bless people with what we're given.

The holier than thou thing doesn't work with me, because I know where I stand with the Lord and I know what I'm supposed to do. If it makes you feel better to try and discredit people's Christianity, you're welcome to keep doing that. But I'd pray about that first, because I'd bet Jesus isn't keen on people trying to bring down other Christians.

I truly DO hope that you have a great relationship with Jesus, but don't worry about mine. Worry about yourself.
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 992,520 times
Reputation: 167
WOW...look at these stats....

Giving Statistics | Tithing & Stewardship

The article starts: I fished through some articles and some statistics and compiled the most interesting statistics in one post. These statistics will make you think, question, and doubt the responsibility of your leaders. I will admit, these giving statistics are not pretty, but i hope they make you re-think some things about stewardship in the Church today.
“in its 2008 report found 33.4% of estimated total giving, $103.32 billion, went to houses of worship and denominational organizations in 2007″ (source).
Right off the bat, the first question is what is the Church doing with the money we have already? This is 103 billion were talking about here? Are we conquering world hunger. Do all the hidden tribes in Africa have printed bibles in their language? Are we taking care of the widows? Sure, there is pressure to give more and more, but are we fiscally responsible and efficient with the resources we are receiving already?
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,777,276 times
Reputation: 802
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
Story: 30-some years ago, I was going to a church and paying "tithes" faithfully...like for years and years. At the time, I believed it was the right thing to do. Then along came a Christian female friend who was homeless, and had a very young child to raise as well. She was broke...practically penniless. I was very poor myself, so limited in what I could do personally. I went to the church elders and asked if the church could help. They flatly refused! They refused to give even a dime. Does this say anything about where their heart was? They wanted money, for years and years, as much as they could get, but did not really want to help people that were in need. That person ended up in the wrong side of town, in a seedy old trailer court, and shortly thereafter someone broke in and beat and raped her. She gave up believing in "my church", and in what basic Bible I had been trying to teach her, and joined a cult...

Bud
I can relate Bud. I was a member of a church and gave generously for years and years. Another members husband was diagnosed with cancer and fought bravely for two years while the wife, who never worked, struggled to put food on the table. When I went to the higher ups to try to get some relief for her...I was told that they didn't have a fund for that kind of thing anymore. They had NO FUNDS to help one of their very own members and yet....they had a huge building fund, just sitting there not being used for anything. That is when I left "Organized Churchianity" for good and I will never, ever go back. Now when I give....it is for those who truly need it.
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:37 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
4,151 posts, read 8,663,382 times
Reputation: 3299
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post

Story: 30-some years ago, I was going to a church and paying "tithes" faithfully...like for years and years. At the time, I believed it was the right thing to do. Then along came a Christian female friend who was homeless, and had a very young child to raise as well. She was broke...practically penniless. I was very poor myself, so limited in what I could do personally. I went to the church elders and asked if the church could help. They flatly refused! They refused to give even a dime. Does this say anything about where their heart was? They wanted money, for years and years, as much as they could get, but did not really want to help people that were in need. That person ended up in the wrong side of town, in a seedy old trailer court, and shortly thereafter someone broke in and beat and raped her. She gave up believing in "my church", and in what basic Bible I had been trying to teach her, and joined a cult...

Bud
That's a horrible story and it shows a great problem with those in charge of that Church. However, we are supposed to tithe off our income. Where is it supposed to go? Wherever your heart is led. Doesn't have to be the Church if you don't feel they're good stewards of your money. Give it to someplace you know it's going to good work.

There are times that you question what someone will do with your money, but the act of obedience is what you're rewarded for. If someone takes that money and doesn't properly care for it, they'll probably be accountable for that at some point. Your heart is what's important. Your blessings to others.

All you can do is pray for that woman, and the leaders of that Church. And continue doing what's right.
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:41 PM
 
Location: San Antonio
4,151 posts, read 8,663,382 times
Reputation: 3299
Quote:
Originally Posted by SisterKat View Post
WOW...look at these stats....

Giving Statistics | Tithing & Stewardship

The article starts: I fished through some articles and some statistics and compiled the most interesting statistics in one post. These statistics will make you think, question, and doubt the responsibility of your leaders. I will admit, these giving statistics are not pretty, but i hope they make you re-think some things about stewardship in the Church today.
“in its 2008 report found 33.4% of estimated total giving, $103.32 billion, went to houses of worship and denominational organizations in 2007″ (source).
Right off the bat, the first question is what is the Church doing with the money we have already? This is 103 billion were talking about here? Are we conquering world hunger. Do all the hidden tribes in Africa have printed bibles in their language? Are we taking care of the widows? Sure, there is pressure to give more and more, but are we fiscally responsible and efficient with the resources we are receiving already?
The real problem is that only about 20% of Christians tithe regularly. If we all tithed like we're supposed to, there would be no homelessness. No hunger.

There ARE Churches that waste. But there are MANY more that give infinitely more. We can find problems with any organization. That's between them and God. But if every Christian tithed like they were supposed to, you'd see an unbelievable amount of good done.
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:50 PM
 
2,945 posts, read 4,519,093 times
Reputation: 1597
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevcrawford View Post
The holier than thou Christian game is getting old.
That`s ironic coming from a church follower. What is the reputation of the christian church. Does self righteousness and holier than thou ring a bell?

Quote:
Most of them build a new building when they've outgrown theirs. This is a bad thing? More and more people coming to hear God's word is a bad thing?
If it`s the word being preached. But so many church`s aren`t preaching God`s word. Judging by your belief in tithing and desiring money,I`d say your church might fall into that catergory.

Quote:
I praise God every time I'm stuck in traffic getting out of Church, because that means so many more souls are saved.
I cringe because most of the time it means more people are being misled.

Quote:
It's not about money.
You keep saying that. But then you always go on to say how important money is and how you work to make more of it.
Quote:
But money IS a conduit to bringing others to Christ. Providing places for them to go is a great thing. There are MANY Churches that meet in gyms, schools, etc., and that's a great thing. But there are MANY that have outgrown them and needed a bigger facility than they could rent. And believe it or not, it takes staff to run a Church. It takes staff to make sure that the Church is able to keep its doors open and running smoothly. Without support, the Church would collapse and that'd mean less people would be reached.
See,that`s the false teaching. People don`t need a big building to congregate in. They don`t need a staff. It becomes more of a business than anything else. If a church is that big,then half the people don`t even know each other. So we have a church having 3 different services on Sunday and different people coming to different services. A church where most of the people don`t even know each other. I`ve met people that have gone to the same church for years and they didn`t even know the other went there.

Quote:
Enough with the holier than thou stuff, because that's pretty judgmental, and if you'd like, I can point you to God's Word and what He says about that. If someone is reaching people for Jesus, I doubt Jesus is too concerned with their methods.
This is the holier than thou attitude. Thinking YOU are reaching people FOR Jesus. God does the drawing and saving,not you,not the church. God controls who comes to him and when. He doesn`t need big buildings,big cars, elaborate sound systems,state of the art video equipment,etc. That`s our flesh making excuses for us having those things.
I have no problem with people meeting in a church. That is not my point.
Just like I have no problem with any group meeting and enjoying each other`s company,paying their dues to keep the club together,take trips,have a softball team,going on retreats,etc.
The problem I have is when we say all this STUFF,all of these MATERIAL things we have,are things that we NEED,THINGS that God needs. God doesn`t need a huge church. He doesn`t need state of the art buildings and equipment.This Sunday on your way home from church,when you`re all dressed up and heading out to your favorite resturaunt for Sunday dinner,drive through the city and look all around you. The people you see standing on the corner with a sign in their hand or bundled up next to a building slumped over, those are what God wants . Not the huge elaborate multi million dollar building you just came from.
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Old 01-07-2010, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
3,772 posts, read 8,960,884 times
Reputation: 1962
Quote:
Originally Posted by BudinAk View Post
Let's just suppose for a minute that the LAW of tithing is still in force today (it's not, but let's just suppose it is, for the sake of this example)

If you are tithing 10% of your income, who are you tithing it to? A local church? A pastor? A TV ministry? The Bible says the tithe was to be given to the Levite Priesthood, to support them, because they could not work a regular job while serving in the temple on a daily basis.

Is the person you are giving your tithe to a Levite? Are they a temple priest? If not, you are violating the Bible law right there! It is not lawful to give the tithe to anyone else. Only the Levitical Priesthood was to receive the tithe, and nobody else, period. Not a pastor, not a church, not a TV ministry, not anybody else!

Problem here, IMO, is so many people look at the Bible and say ALL of the rules and laws in it apply to us today. The truth is a little deeper than that:
Parts of the Bible applied to people living under the Old Covenant, parts of it apply to us today, who live under the New Covenant, and parts of it apply to everyone, regardless of the time-frame they lived in. Why is that concept so hard to understand? When you read the Bible, ask God for wisdom on whether a particular passage applies to you today, or was it for some other people, or nation, from times past?

All of the above said, what is it then that we today ARE supposed to be doing? The New Testament is full of examples, but for some reason modern churches just don't seem to "get it"...they just aren't seeing it. We are to be GIVING. And giving generously, from the heart, and not because of some ancient law, pertaining to another people, living under a different covenant, that says "you gotta". So many churches love to resurrect that old law and tell you "you have to tithe...the Bible says so!". No, it does not.
And they will pass that shiny offering plate around in full view of everyone, to make sure you feel badly if you don't comply...

There is little joy in giving simply to meet the demands of an archaic law. It is like paying taxes to the IRS: there's absolutely no joy in it, but you are left in "good standing". Whereas, there is tremendous joy in giving out of the heart, with the freedom that comes in serving the Lord Jesus Christ.

Q: Who are you serving: a man-made church hierarchy that constantly demands money of you, and (falsely) says "the Bible says so", or the Lord God?

Story: 30-some years ago, I was going to a church and paying "tithes" faithfully...like for years and years. At the time, I believed it was the right thing to do. Then along came a Christian female friend who was homeless, and had a very young child to raise as well. She was broke...practically penniless. I was very poor myself, so limited in what I could do personally. I went to the church elders and asked if the church could help. They flatly refused! They refused to give even a dime. Does this say anything about where their heart was? They wanted money, for years and years, as much as they could get, but did not really want to help people that were in need. That person ended up in the wrong side of town, in a seedy old trailer court, and shortly thereafter someone broke in and beat and raped her. She gave up believing in "my church", and in what basic Bible I had been trying to teach her, and joined a cult...

Bud
I guess everyone stays at home on Sunday,because there are no churches because there are no tithes and offerings to pay the mortgage so that we can go to church or assemble in the Body of Christ. I guess each individual would have their own ministry and interpret the Bible in their own way as how to give.


I mean a church is only a building so I guess individuals could congregate in each others houses,I mean this is really the meaning of a church to begin with that only a few need to assemble,we don't want to tithe as this is against the will of God in the Old Testament.

So Bud you quit paying tithes because of what happened to a homeless woman on the street,how come you were not adhering to the law of tithing beforehand knowing that it only went to the Levitical Priesthood,that doesn't make sense.

Last edited by noland123; 01-07-2010 at 03:11 PM..
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