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Old 01-08-2010, 11:20 AM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stewardship View Post
It doesn't matter, this discussion is about how more money won't solve hunger or homelessness. Truth be told though if you wish to justify 85% of 103Billion being spent on the edification of saints and praise to God, then why not use 85% of 300 Billion, or 85% of 800 billion to praise God? Either way, my point is proven that more money won't solve hunger because we believe that God and the saints really need 85%. it doesn't matter if we have 100 billion or 900 billion, our edification and God's glorification will always be the excuse to spend a majority of it on internal operations.
You could make the same argument about school districts. A large % of the money to run a school district is salaries. Should we close down schools? No! A well-educated society is vital to our progress.

By the same token, a paid church staff can focus on doing God's work, & in turn lead others to a higher level of service & spirituality. Churches can provide services to the community at a level individuals can't.
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Old 01-08-2010, 12:12 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
27,860 posts, read 43,843,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
... By the same token, a paid church staff can focus on doing God's work, & in turn lead others to a higher level of service & spirituality. Churches can provide services to the community at a level individuals can't.
And yet Jesus never says that churches should be doing any of this.

Paul never says it either.
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Old 01-08-2010, 12:40 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
3,772 posts, read 8,984,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
And yet Jesus never says that churches should be doing any of this.

Paul never says it either.
You must be from a small rural town.
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Old 01-08-2010, 01:06 PM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
13,124 posts, read 6,886,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
And yet Jesus never says that churches should be doing any of this.

Paul never says it either.
I've already given you the passage where Jesus said exactly that. You've chosen to ignore it!
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Old 01-08-2010, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
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In the Mid-East a holy man travels with: a robe, a staff and a bowl.

He does not 'beg' for food. He simply holds his bowl, if you want to drop food into his bowl you may.

Quote:
Luke 10:1 After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
:2 He told them, "The harvest is plentiful, but the workers are few. Ask the Lord of the harvest, therefore, to send out workers into his harvest field.
:3 Go! I am sending you out like lambs among wolves.
:4 Do not take a purse or bag or sandals; and do not greet anyone on the road.
:5 "When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.'
:6 If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you.
:7 Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.
:8 And into whatsoever city ye enter and they receive you eat such things as are set before you
:9 And heal the sick that are therein and say unto them The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
These were not Christians. These were Jews in a discipleship program that Jesus oversaw.

They preached that the Kingdom of God was nigh, and they healed people.

They blessed people, they healed the sick and if they were offered food they ate it.

This says nothing about guilting anyone into complying with a curse.

No where does it say that they built buildings and had budgets within which to fund community programs.

The king no longer walks among us.

The King was rejected and killed.

Today we are Christians, Jesus is the head of our body, the corner stone of our Temple.



Quote:
1 Tim 5:17 The elders who direct the affairs of the church well are worthy of double honor, especially those whose work is preaching and teaching.
:18 For the Scripture says, "Do not muzzle the ox while it is treading out the grain," and "The worker deserves his wages."
I most certainly do honour those elders in my fellowship.

A better look at this is 1 Corinthians 9

Quote:
1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I am not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?
:2 If I be not an apostle unto others, yet doubtless I am to you: for the seal of mine apostleship are ye in the Lord.
:3 Mine answer to them that do examine me is this,
:4 Have we not power to eat and to drink?
Ring any bells?



Quote:
:5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas?
As we see in other passages in Paul's travels he usually worked in his trade and earned his own keep.

Women commonly followed him [a divorced man] and those women occasionally provided for his needs.

This was clearly seen as inappropriate and someone was outraged, and in this passage we see Paul making rebuttal to that outrage.



Quote:
:6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
:7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
Was he planting money trees?

Was he 'charging' anyone with supporting him?

The passage does not say such.



Quote:
:8 Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also?
:9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
:10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.
:11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
:12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
Just to make sure that nobody misinterpreted Paul's words here he plainly lays out that he never tried to abuse his spiritual 'power' over anyone.

Perhaps he could have required that the congregation support him.

But doing so would have hindered the Gospel.



Quote:
:13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?
Completely true. People who follow the Law tithe food; and the levites ate that food [never money though].



Quote:
:14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
:15 But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
What? Paul says that he never wrote for us to do what the levites do. But wait that contradicts your argument!



Quote:
:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
:17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.
:18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge,
that I abuse not my power in the gospel.
The preacher's reward is not from the congregation, it is from God.

Paul, the example for us to follow [I can provide that passage too you if need it], did not charge anyone to support him,
it would have been an abuse of his power.
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Old 01-08-2010, 01:53 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noland123 View Post
You must be from a small rural town.
Because I read the Bible?
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:07 PM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
13,124 posts, read 6,886,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Paul, the example for us to follow [I can provide that passage too you if need it], did not charge anyone to support him,
it would have been an abuse of his power.
And yet, regarding preachers, etc., he quoted Jesus. "A worker is due his wages."
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Old 01-08-2010, 02:34 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
27,860 posts, read 43,843,968 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
And yet, regarding preachers, etc., he quoted Jesus. "A worker is due his wages."
Hire anyone that you wish to hire.

Anytime that you hire anyone it is customary to pay them a salary.

Regarding preachers let us not forget what Jesus said about hirelings.
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Old 01-08-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Seward, Alaska
2,739 posts, read 7,308,615 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noland123 View Post
I guess everyone stays at home on Sunday,because there are no churches because there are no tithes and offerings to pay the mortgage so that we can go to church or assemble in the Body of Christ. I guess each individual would have their own ministry and interpret the Bible in their own way as how to give.


I mean a church is only a building so I guess individuals could congregate in each others houses,I mean this is really the meaning of a church to begin with that only a few need to assemble,we don't want to tithe as this is against the will of God in the Old Testament.

So Bud you quit paying tithes because of what happened to a homeless woman on the street,how come you were not adhering to the law of tithing beforehand knowing that it only went to the Levitical Priesthood,that doesn't make sense.


Because...I was not taught the difference between tithing, and giving, beforehand, that's why. I didn't have a clue what the word "tithe" meant, in the Old Testament, who it was given to, and what the purpose of it was. (a lot of Christians still don't) I was doing it because the church I was going to said it was the right thing to do, that it said so "somewhere in the Bible", so I went along with it. Everybody did, or at least they were "supposed" to...

RE: money to fund local church buildings: I guess you didn't read where I said we were to GIVE, because that is the New Covenant example? Did you miss that four-letter word GIVE? Give where, and to who? Why, your local church, or the ministry that is ministering to you, or where you feel the Lord is leading you to give to, that's who! There isn't anything wrong with supporting your local church!

In reading over all the posts and replies, I think what people are doing is misnaming their donations and giving as being a tithe, which it absolutely is not. Almost nobody tithes to a Levite priest anymore. Nobody shows up at their local church with 250 truckloads of fresh corn, or 250 sheep, because that is 10% of their increase! When did actual "tithing" change to cash money? (it didn't) (but the charlatans on TV caught onto the "tithe" gimmick real quick, didn't they?) (like: tithe to us, or you won't be blessed, you are robbing from God if you don't, etc, etc)
What most Christians are actually doing is giving to a pastor, or church ministry, which is fine, there is NOTHING wrong with that, but it's not a real tithe. Nothing in my reply said "don't give to your local church", or "don't support your local ministry"

If the difference between "tithe", and "giving", from a Bible perspective, is not taught, then the mis-representation of the word "tithe" lives on and on. And frankly, it has done just exactly that. It is apparent that the word "tithe" means something different to you, than it does to me. The term has been used so loosely, and so frequently, both in local churches, and on the media, that the word itself no longer means what it used to. If I am a logger, then to literally "tithe my increase" means I need to bring truckloads of logs and then go dump them in the backyard of the local church. (and Lord forbid, that my business be in recycling cow manure. ) And the pastor had better be a Levite priest. I have a feeling our church and pastors today would prefer cash, over logs, sheep, or corn. Bottem line: we give. Almost nobody really actually tithes!

Bud
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:02 PM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
13,124 posts, read 6,886,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
Hire anyone that you wish to hire.

Anytime that you hire anyone it is customary to pay them a salary.

Regarding preachers let us not forget what Jesus said about hirelings.
"Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house."

Put this passage side by side with your "hireling" passage.

-People's New Testament Commentary

But he that is a hireling . . . leaveth the sheep, and fleeth. It is not the bare fact of a man receiving pay that makes him a hireling. "The laborer is worthy of his hire." He is a hireling who would not work were it not for this hire, and who works where the hire is highest rather than were he can do the most good.

-Adam Clarke Commentary

But he that is a hireling
Or, as my old MS. Bible reads it, the marchaunt, he who makes merchandise of men's souls; bartering them, and his own too, for filthy lucre. Let not the reader apply this, or any of the preceding censures, to any particular class or order of men: every religious party may have a hireling priest, or minister; and where the provision is the greatest there the danger is most.

-John Abbott Commentary

Hireling; that is, a man employed for wages, and influenced chiefly by his expected reward.

-The 1599 Geneva Study Bible

Only Christ is the true Pastor, and those only are the true Church who acknowledge him to properly be their only Pastor: opposite to him are thieves who do not feed the sheep, but kill them: and hirelings also, who forsake the flock in time of danger, because they feed it only for their own profit and gains.

All these commentaries seem to indicate Christ was talking about earthly shepherds who do not genuinely love Christ and His church.
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