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Old 01-06-2010, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,779,160 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
We know what God wants from us. The Bible tells us over and over.

Why do so many wish to kick against God's Word?

Anything above what God says, being demanded by a church, is purely that business [and most churches today are businesses], trying to stuff their coffers.

We know what God has to say about 'hirelings'. But many churches today have them.

A mortgage, a fancy building, and salaried staff; all of it forms a bottom-line. How much that church-business needs to pay it's bills each month. That is a business.

We all know this is not of God.

Jesus was very loud about money being near the Temple. Forbidden things as they were, and in the Temple to boot.

Many organizations turn churches into businesses, and many people earn their salaries from those businesses. It suits their greed to teach that Jewish laws apply to Christians. And even then they pollute those Mosaic laws to imply that cash is some how allowed, even though it is specifically forbidden.

Evil, very evil twisting in the hearts of men.
I couldn't agree more!!
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:24 PM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
13,037 posts, read 6,821,078 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
We know what God wants from us. The Bible tells us over and over.

Why do so many wish to kick against God's Word?

Anything above what God says, being demanded by a church, is purely that business [and most churches today are businesses], trying to stuff their coffers.

We know what God has to say about 'hirelings'. But many churches today have them.

A mortgage, a fancy building, and salaried staff; all of it forms a bottom-line. How much that church-business needs to pay it's bills each month. That is a business.

We all know this is not of God.

Jesus was very loud about money being near the Temple. Forbidden things as they were, and in the Temple to boot.

Many organizations turn churches into businesses, and many people earn their salaries from those businesses. It suits their greed to teach that Jewish laws apply to Christians. And even then they pollute those Mosaic laws to imply that cash is some how allowed, even though it is specifically forbidden.

Evil, very evil twisting in the hearts of men.
How does the following passage fit into your scheme?

"And He (God) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-12).
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Old 01-06-2010, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,779,160 times
Reputation: 802
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
How does the following passage fit into your scheme?

"And He (God) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-12).
I tend to stick with Jesus words only so it holds no relevance to me whatsoever:

Matthew 23:

8"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

9"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11"But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
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Old 01-06-2010, 04:03 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
27,781 posts, read 43,646,500 times
Reputation: 14686
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
How does the following passage fit into your scheme?

"And He (God) gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ" (Ephesians 4:11-12).
"God gave"

God gave to the church a series of gifts, for the purpose of edifying the body.

The church now has within it people who each may have a gift ministry.

They might be an apostle, or a prophet, or an evangelist, or a pastor, or a teacher.

We today are the Temple of God. We together form that Temple. We are also called the body of Christ. We are also members in particular.
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Old 01-06-2010, 04:42 PM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
13,037 posts, read 6,821,078 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
"God gave"

God gave to the church a series of gifts, for the purpose of edifying the body.

The church now has within it people who each may have a gift ministry.

They might be an apostle, or a prophet, or an evangelist, or a pastor, or a teacher.

We today are the Temple of God. We together form that Temple. We are also called the body of Christ. We are also members in particular.
And who are these pastors & teachers supposed to preach to/teach?
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Old 01-06-2010, 05:29 PM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
13,037 posts, read 6,821,078 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
I tend to stick with Jesus words only so it holds no relevance to me whatsoever:

Matthew 23:

8"But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers.

9"Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
10"Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. 11"But the greatest among you shall be your servant.
I think in the passage you quote, Jesus was chastising the Pharisees for their conceited attitude in enforcing the Law.

Regardless, what do you make of this passage?

Matthew 28

18Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age."

Who's supposed to do this in today's world?
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
27,781 posts, read 43,646,500 times
Reputation: 14686
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
And who are these pastors & teachers supposed to preach to/teach?
I have no idea where you think you are going with this.

The body?
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:18 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
27,781 posts, read 43,646,500 times
Reputation: 14686
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimmiej View Post
... Who's supposed to do this in today's world?
All members of the body.
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Old 01-06-2010, 06:31 PM
 
Location: Walt Disney World
13,037 posts, read 6,821,078 times
Reputation: 1321
Quote:
Originally Posted by forest beekeeper View Post
I have no idea where you think you are going with this.

The body?
Then why is it wrong for a church to hire a pastor to lead them?
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Old 01-06-2010, 07:43 PM
 
Location: Salt Lake City
19,112 posts, read 18,368,259 times
Reputation: 8044
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
You said it correctly 1/10 of their increase for that year....that means that if I get a raise this year.....only 1/10 of that raise is what is to be tithed if you insist on using the OT as a basis for tithing 1/10 today.
Oh my gosh! Have you ever considered going into law? Technicalities really seem to be your specialty. I'm just curious... If a person were to lose his job or have to take a cut in pay, do you believe they would be entitled to ask for a percent of their "decrease" back from the Church?

Quote:
The tithes were set up to support the Levitical Priesthood and the poor (this is comparable to the governmental system of taxing that we have today which supports the poor)....not for mega churches and entertainment centers for Christians so you can't justify saying God is being robbed because you don't give money to some church. Mal 3 was a specific rebuke toward the Levitical Priesthood themselves....they were the ones robbing God because they weren't using the tithes given to them in the proper manner. So if this is to be applied today it would apply to the Pastors of churches and not the people who attend them....do they use the tithes in a proper manner?
Oh, I totally agree that tithes should be used in a proper manner.

Quote:
I prefer to give what God blesses me with....strictly for those in NEED (i.e. the poor, orphans, widows, people with no food, people with no shelter, etc.) My heart is cheerful when I am giving in the proper manner and God blesses me richly for it.
I believe that we have been commanded to tithe, and feel it a privilege to give 10% of my gross income. Because I am able, I also contribute additionally to help the poor and needy in my congregation and worldwide. I agree that we should give cheerfully, but I can't imagine trying to come up with reasons justify my paying anything less than a full tithe. But each to his own I guess.
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