U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 01-05-2010, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,943,229 times
Reputation: 420

Advertisements

Ironmaw and Eusebius,

The grafting back in is the remnant as the representative for Ethnic Israel of the first century. This grafting is in direct correlation to the resurrection of the dead and living, once the fulness of the Gentiles were completed, which was at the close of the Mosaic age, when all "in Christ" took part in the marraige between Christ and the entire church, saints that slept, and those who died after the cruxifiction, and those who were alive at that specific point in time. Read more on the Corporate Body View to get yourself acclimated with this concept that is scripturally consistent. True Israel, from both Jew and Gentile, were grafted back in to the Olive Tree/God:

For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?

He answers the question:

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And expounds that True Israel, both Jew and Gentile is grafted back in to the Olive Tree.

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

The Remnant and the Gentiles turned what Apostate Israel had turned themselves from, who is God, and brought True Israel back into the Olive Tree.
Hence, the marriage....the mystery...accomplished Rev 10:7

And to reply concerning the Satan comment Ironmaw:

Uncalled for and outright un-Christain. Just because I have proposed that you have blinders on, doesn't allude to anything close to the sort for disregarding your faith, just your interpretation. Your fruit bears witness against you here, and for the record, Satan's power has been defeated.
He's burning.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-05-2010 at 01:12 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 01-05-2010, 01:18 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,144,848 times
Reputation: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Ironmaw and Eusebius,

The grafting back iin is the remnant of the first century. This grafting is in direct correlation tothe resurrection of the dead and living, once the fulness of the Gentiles were completed, which was at the close of the Mosaic age.
Rom 11:25 For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering."
Rom 11:26 And thus all Israel shall be saved, according as it is written, Arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. He will be turning away irreverence from Jacob."
Rom 11:27 And this is my covenant with them Whenever I should be eliminating their sins.

Where in the bible does it use the phrase "Mosaic age"? There is none.

There can't be a resurrection of the living for, to be resurrected you have to be dead.

The remnant aren't the ones grafted back into the olive. The ones taken out were the unbelievers of Israel:
Rom 11:20 Ideally! By unbelief are they broken out, yet you stand in faith. Be not haughty, but fear."

So the ones needed grafting in again are the unbelieving Israelites.


Christ did not return in 70 A.D. and save all Israel.
Christ did not arrive out of Zion and Rescue Israel.
The complement of the nations has not entered yet.

Once that which completes body of believers of the nations then arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. Preterism is dead.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-05-2010, 02:57 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,943,229 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Where in the bible does it use the phrase "Mosaic age"? There is none.
It's called exegesis...interpreting scripture with other scripture...something you cannot perform.

Quote:
There can't be a resurrection of the living for, to be resurrected you have to be dead.
First, for the Dispensationalist sake, this resurrection is called the Rapture.

You're concept of Death in regards to the scripture is in error. I will point it out to you again, for the reader's sake.

Death is in the LAW. If you do not believe in Christ, you are already dead.
But believe in Him, and you are resurrected in life. 1 Cor 15:56, John 11:25, Rom 8:2, Rom 7:5, Acts 23:39
The Resurrection was simply the movement of the body of faithful out of the Old Covenant into the New Covenant of Christ.
Apostate Jews under judgment refused to believe when given a generation of time to come around and then lost their covenant status as God’s people and suffered the loss of God’s covenant protection. What throws folks off is the misidentification of the symbolism such as judgment and resurrections language. This language has been identified outside the bounds of the timing of the 2nd Temple Judaism's identification because people look for the physical instead of the Spiritual, and that Christ had plenty of trouble of convincing the Jews to understand this even in His time. It doesn't surprise me that the Jews didn’t understand the resurrection properly when Jesus spoke to them and that people today, like yourself, still hasn't caught it yet either. In time.


Quote:
The remnant aren't the ones grafted back into the olive. The ones taken out were the unbelievers of Israel:
Rom 11:20 Ideally! By unbelief are they broken out, yet you stand in faith. Be not haughty, but fear."..................So the ones needed grafting in again are the unbelieving Israelites
No they aren't, the ones grafted back in is True Israel, both Jew and Gentile...again, your interpretation is in error and eisegetical.
Pure assumption on your part and is not consistent with the text.

Quote:
Christ did not return in 70 A.D. and save all Israel.
Assumption based on error on your part.

Quote:
Christ did not arrive out of Zion and Rescue Israel.
Yes He did. True Isael was rescued....the spiritual city.

Quote:
The complement of the nations has not entered yet.
Yes they have.

Quote:
Once that which completes body of believers of the nations then arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. Preterism is dead.
The body is complete. Jew and Gentile. Futurism is dead in the water.

Last edited by sciotamicks; 01-05-2010 at 03:43 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 11:19 AM
 
187 posts, read 249,195 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Mike, please clarify your OP ... Are you saying that you believe that all biblical prophecy was fulfilled in Christ at the time of his death on the cross and that you believe that is what it means when it is written, "knowing that ALL THINGS were now accomplished:"?
Yes...I am suggesting that anything found within the Law & Prophets was fulfilled in Christs incarnation and through His death on the cross. Matthew 5:17-18 tells us that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

Jesus said that it was His mission...The gospel of John confirms in 17:4 "I have finished the work which You have given Me to do." If you are suggesting that this is not the case then you need to tell us why?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 11:31 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,709,825 times
Reputation: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychohmike View Post
Yes...I am suggesting that anything found within the Law & Prophets was fulfilled in Christs incarnation and through His death on the cross. Matthew 5:17-18 tells us that He came to fulfill the law and the prophets.

Jesus said that it was His mission...The gospel of John confirms in 17:4 "I have finished the work which You have given Me to do." If you are suggesting that this is not the case then you need to tell us why?
I believe that Jesus did come to fulfill the law and the prophets ... I just don't believe that his death on the cross fulfilled every prophecy.

When Jesus left he said he was going to prepare a place for us, and that he would return to receive us to himself that where he is we may also be(john 14:2-3).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 11:55 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,144,848 times
Reputation: 987
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
It's called exegesis...interpreting scripture with other scripture...something you cannot perform.



First, for the Dispensationalist sake, this resurrection is called the Rapture.
First, for truth's sake, the resurrection is of dead bodies brought to life from among the dead and those dead bodies stand up in life.

The rapture or "snatching away" is the lifting of that body that was resurrected from among the dead along with those who were living at the time of their resurrection and all are caught away to meet the Lord in the air.

Quote:
You're concept of Death in regards to the scripture is in error. I will point it out to you again, for the reader's sake.

Death is in the LAW. If you do not believe in Christ, you are already dead.
But believe in Him, and you are resurrected in life. 1 Cor 15:56, John 11:25, Rom 8:2, Rom 7:5, Acts 23:39
The Resurrection was simply the movement of the body of faithful out of the Old Covenant into the New Covenant of Christ.
Apostate Jews under judgment refused to believe when given a generation of time to come around and then lost their covenant status as God’s people and suffered the loss of God’s covenant protection. What throws folks off is the misidentification of the symbolism such as judgment and resurrections language. This language has been identified outside the bounds of the timing of the 2nd Temple Judaism's identification because people look for the physical instead of the Spiritual, and that Christ had plenty of trouble of convincing the Jews to understand this even in His time. It doesn't surprise me that the Jews didn’t understand the resurrection properly when Jesus spoke to them and that people today, like yourself, still hasn't caught it yet either. In time.


There was death before the law was given: (see Romans 5:13,14) so your idea is incorrect. There was also death for those of the nations who knew no law. There are a couple kinds of death in the Scripture:
  1. Dying to one's self
  2. Being dead to God by living in sin
  3. Being literally dead (as in the cessation of all life)
  4. and literally dying (as a process leading to death)
  5. The law killing a person so that one is not capable of living a life pleasing to God
Eusebius wrote before:
The remnant aren't the ones grafted back into the olive. The ones taken out were the unbelievers of Israel:
Rom 11:20 Ideally! By unbelief are they broken out, yet you stand in faith. Be not haughty, but fear."..................So the ones needed grafting in again are the unbelieving Israelites

Quote:
No they aren't, the ones grafted back in is True Israel, both Jew and Gentile...again, your interpretation is in error and eisegetical.
Pure assumption on your part and is not consistent with the text.
Yes they are. The ones grafted in again have to be the ones broken out in the first place and those broken out were broken out due unbelief. Look at this: Rom 11:23 Now they also, if they should not be persisting in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again." See that? "graft them in AGAIN." The only way you can be put into a tree AGAIN is to have been put in it before and taken out.


Quote:
Eusebius wrote before:
Christ did not return in 70 A.D. and save all Israel.
Quote:
Assumption based on error on your part.
Well, your reply sure proves everything.


Quote:
Eusebius wrote before:
Christ did not arrive out of Zion and Rescue Israel.
Quote:
Yes He did. True Isael was rescued....the spiritual city.
Funny, but in Romans chapters 9 thru 11 Paul never mentions Israel being a spiritual city that is to be rescued. Just more lunacy on your part in trying to cover up the weaknesses of your system of error.

Quote:
Eusebius wrote before:
The complement of the nations has not entered yet.
Quote:
Yes they have.
Wow, you almost have me convinced by your proof! or should I say, no proof!


Quote:
Eusebius wrote before:
Once that which completes body of believers of the nations then arriving out of Zion shall be the Rescuer. Preterism is dead.
Quote:
The body is complete. Jew and Gentile. Futurism is dead in the water.
That is not what Paul was writing about in Romans 9 thru 11 and in fact that is a later secret revealed when Paul was in prison that the body is now composed of Jew and Gentile and both are on equal grounds but the Circumcision Jew is a separate entity with a separate future allotment on earth while the body of Christ has a celestial allotment among the heavens.

For whom toll the bells? They toll for thee Preterism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 12:04 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,709,825 times
Reputation: 888
Also, many of the OT prophecies were obviously not fulfilled by the death of Christ, and their were prophecies given after the death of Christ which have not been fulfilled. Paul said their were still ages to come after the age he was in at the time ... The age he was in at the time he wrote those words ended at the destruction of the temple in ad 70, we are in a different age now and according to Paul there is at least one more age left before the completion of Gods will on earth.

Selah ...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 12:46 PM
 
187 posts, read 249,195 times
Reputation: 30
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
I believe that Jesus did come to fulfill the law and the prophets ... I just don't believe that his death on the cross fulfilled every prophecy.

When Jesus left he said he was going to prepare a place for us, and that he would return to receive us to himself that where he is we may also be(john 14:2-3).
Yes...But that is not a prophecy found within the law and the prophets now is it?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 01:00 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,709,825 times
Reputation: 888
Quote:
Originally Posted by psychohmike View Post
Yes...But that is not a prophecy found within the law and the prophets now is it?

No it is not, it is a prophecy of Christ.


But there are many prophesies that were not fulfilled in the death of Christ from the old tetament, such as ...

Every knee shall bow and tongue confess (isa)...

Every Kindred of every Nation shall turn unto god and worship him (psa)...

And every other prophecy that repeats this eventual reality.

No more war ... Israel becoming the head of the nations ...

Sodom being reestablished ...

etc ...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-06-2010, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,295 posts, read 4,943,229 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
First, for truth's sake, the resurrection is of dead bodies brought to life from among the dead and those dead bodies stand up in life.

The rapture or "snatching away" is the lifting of that body that was resurrected from among the dead along with those who were living at the time of their resurrection and all are caught away to meet the Lord in the air.
Let me ask you this, how can one be raptured, where only their clothes are on the floor, when the text explicitly states, that the corruptible must be shed? Contradictory.

Quote:
There was death before the law was given: (see Romans 5:13,14) so your idea is incorrect. There was also death for those of the nations who knew no law. There are a couple kinds of death in the Scripture:[list=1][*]Dying to one's self[*]Being dead to God by living in sin[*]Being literally dead (as in the cessation of all life)[*]and literally dying (as a process leading to death)[*]The law killing a person so that one is not capable of living a life pleasing to God
I am not talking about physical death.


Quote:
The remnant aren't the ones grafted back into the olive. The ones taken out were the unbelievers of Israel:
Rom 11:20 Ideally! By unbelief are they broken out, yet you stand in faith. Be not haughty, but fear."..................So the ones needed grafting in again are the unbelieving Israelites
No they aren't. They, them, all, is Israel, spiritual Israel.


Quote:
Funny, but in Romans chapters 9 thru 11 Paul never mentions Israel being a spiritual city that is to be rescued. Just more lunacy on your part in trying to cover up the weaknesses of your system of error.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these [are] not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

There you have it, not of the flesh, therefore what else is there?
The Spirit. LOL

You're wrong brother, and it doesn't surprise me at all. Keep studying. I have explained it in a post further back, address that and then we will talk, but all you addressed is replies back. And for the record, can you provide a exegetical response using scripture to interpret your claim...because all I see is direct quotes from your mind to your keyboard.

Please for the reader's sake, so they can compare the scripture you provide to back up your claim fro Roman 9-11, instead of just pure Dispy talk.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top