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Old 01-04-2010, 03:26 AM
 
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Polycarp and Papias, both 2nd century writers and fathers of the Earliest church wrote about the future return of Christ and the resurrection of the dead. Papias in particular wrote about the future reign of Christ for a thousand years, and his writings influenced most of the early church fathers in regard their understanding of Prophecy.

It is interesting to note that over a century later Eusebius of Caesarea argued against the teachings of these men, most notably and by name against Papias whom Eusebius claims was ignorant of the truth and fictionalized his sources. remember that Papias along with Polycarp was a direct disciple of John who himself was the author of the book of revelations.

here is what Eusebius said about Papias ...

Quote:
This same historian (Papias) also gives other accounts, which he says he adds as received by him from unwritten tradition, likewise certain strange parables of our Lord, and of His doctrine and some other matters rather too fabulous. In these he says there would be a certain millennium after the resurrection, and that there would be a corporeal reign of Christ on this very earth; which things he appears to have imagined, as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representations. For he was very limited in his comprehension, as is evident from his discourses; yet he was the cause why most of the ecclesiastical writers, urging the antiquity of man, were carried away by a similar opinion; as, for instance, Irenaus, or any other that adopted such sentiments.
Unwritten tradition ... ? Papias learned directly from the apostle John. Could it be that what Papias was teaching was what he himself was taught by john that was not written in the letters written by John himself?


Eusebius claims that the some of the teachings of Papias were "rather to fabulous" ... and ... "things he appears to have imagined as if they were authorized by the apostolic narrations, not understanding correctly those matters which they propounded mystically in their representation" ...


Who are we to believe on the understanding of the teachings of the apostle John and his writings? The second century Papias who was himself a direct disciple of the apostle John who wrote revelations, or Eusebius who lived in and taught in the fourth century?


Also, note that Eusebius was a friend Emperor Constantine who wrote great things about Constantine's life in his Eulogy of the emperor, "Life of Constantine".

It is historical fact that Constantine was a pagan/Christian who was never even Baptized until just before he died on his death bed. He was also responsible for forcing Christians to worship on Sunday instead of on Saturday as was there custom until then.

This is a link to an article which deals with some of the pagan influences that Constantine had on Christianity.

The Great Falling Away - Fourth Century Christians. Constantine: Friend or Foe?

And this is another link to an article which goes into detail about Constantine's brutal reign and the negative materialist and pagan influences he had on Christianity during the period of time in which he courted the church in order to accomplish his agenda to unite the roman Empire once again under his sole reign.

The Emperor Constantine Rules Harshly


Digging in the dirt we begin to see the motivations which must have influenced Eusebius in his attempts to discredit Papias and his teachings which he had received from the apostle John concerning the future reign of Christ on earth and other Prophecies which he taught were yet to be fulfilled.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-04-2010 at 03:57 AM..
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Old 01-04-2010, 05:13 AM
 
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Ghee, I think I better change my name to Polycarp or Papias. That Eusebius was such a wascal!

Thanks Ironmaw for digging this historical data up.

There is, however, a problem regarding one of the links you provided. They said here: The Great Falling Away - The Seventh, Eighth, and Nineth Century Paulicians

"By the middle of the ninth century, the commandment keeping remnant of the "True Church" found themselves sandwiched between the on going persecution of the Byzantine church in Asia Minor and the rise of Islam in the mideast."

If they were true Paulicians (followers of Paul) they would not be keeping the commandments for that was the very thing Paul told the Galatians they cannot mix law with grace. Rather, if they would be living in accord with love, this fulfills all the law.

Oh dear, continuing the links provided at the above link, they say Herbert W. Armstrong
restored the true Gospel. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Last edited by Eusebius; 01-04-2010 at 06:07 AM..
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Old 01-04-2010, 12:21 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Ghee, I think I better change my name to Polycarp or Papias. That Eusebius was such a wascal!

Thanks Ironmaw for digging this historical data up.

There is, however, a problem regarding one of the links you provided. They said here: The Great Falling Away - The Seventh, Eighth, and Nineth Century Paulicians

"By the middle of the ninth century, the commandment keeping remnant of the "True Church" found themselves sandwiched between the on going persecution of the Byzantine church in Asia Minor and the rise of Islam in the mideast."

If they were true Paulicians (followers of Paul) they would not be keeping the commandments for that was the very thing Paul told the Galatians they cannot mix law with grace. Rather, if they would be living in accord with love, this fulfills all the law.

Oh dear, continuing the links provided at the above link, they say Herbert W. Armstrong
restored the true Gospel. Nothing could be further from the truth.
The Paulicians were named after the third century bishop Paul of Samosata, and not the apostle Paul ... They were considered by the orthodox church at the time to be pseudo-Gnostics ...

The only Reason for my linking to truechristians.org was in order to provide some facts as evidences of Constantines' character. I do not subscribe to that site or the beliefs of the creators of the site.
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:34 PM
 
17,968 posts, read 11,130,411 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
The Paulicians were named after the third century bishop Paul of Samosata, and not the apostle Paul ... They were considered by the orthodox church at the time to be pseudo-Gnostics ...

The only Reason for my linking to truechristians.org was in order to provide some facts as evidences of Constantines' character. I do not subscribe to that site or the beliefs of the creators of the site.
That's good.

And to think the Roman Catholic Church is the direct result of Constantine's mixing paganism with Christianity. Oh, and quess what else is part of the paganization of Christianity? . . . no future millennium! The new RCC under Constantine got rid of the Chiliasts (thousand-year-ists).

This is probably where Mike and sciotamicks get their Preterism is the mixing of paganism with Christendumb.
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Old 01-04-2010, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Polycarp preached Christ was 50 years old. This alone discredits much of his writings concerning the second coming.
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Old 01-04-2010, 03:47 PM
 
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Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Polycarp preached Christ was 50 years old. This alone discredits much of his writings concerning the second coming.
Not really. "The noted Christian Irenaeus (130-202 A.D.) in Against Heresies (2:22:6) believed that Jesus was nearly 50 years old when he died." Jesus Was About 30 Years Old When He Died - Jesus Police Website

Irenaeus was a Preterist. Therefore Preterism is wrong.
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:00 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Not really. "The noted Christian Irenaeus (130-202 A.D.) in Against Heresies (2:22:6) believed that Jesus was nearly 50 years old when he died." Jesus Was About 30 Years Old When He Died - Jesus Police Website

Irenaeus was a Preterist. Therefore Preterism is wrong.
Sorry...Irenaeus quotes Polycarp...my mistake, and Irenaeus was not a preterist. LOL...but Eusebius was
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:57 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,706,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Polycarp preached Christ was 50 years old. This alone discredits much of his writings concerning the second coming.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
Not really. "The noted Christian Irenaeus (130-202 A.D.) in Against Heresies (2:22:6) believed that Jesus was nearly 50 years old when he died." Jesus Was About 30 Years Old When He Died - Jesus Police Website

Irenaeus was a Preterist. Therefore Preterism is wrong.
If i'm not mistaken, nowhere in the bible does it say that Jesus died at the age of 33 ... Its funny that many have claimed that Christ was 33 when he died, because 33 is a number of extreme occult significance. that is why it is the highest degree on the Scottish rite of freemasonry.

But Irenaeus was not a preterist Eusebius, he believed also in a future Millennial reign of Christ. As far as i can tell, Eusebius is the only church father that had a full preterist slant ... I am not certain of that, but i have not found any evidence of others as of yet though tere may well have been others who followed in Eusebius foot steps in regard these things that i have not yet come across.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-04-2010 at 07:21 PM..
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:59 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Sorry...Irenaeus quotes Polycarp...my mistake, and Irenaeus was not a preterist. LOL...but Eusebius was
I think it is funny trying to pin a label like preterist on the early church... LOL

That is like saying that John was a preterist when clearly he was a present-ist !

John clearly thought with all his heart that Jesus would come soon... He records Jesus himself stating in the vision that he would come quickly.. If that isn't a clear enough statement to the fact that he came quickly.. then I don't know what is...

What reason do futurists have for denying the time statements in Revelation again?

You can argue that Polycarp, Irenaeus, Eusebius, et al. were preterist because they all believed that the New Covenant was in full effect. That would have only been the case if Jesus already came back.

Figuratively, in our lives, we experience the second coming and resurrection the moment we realize the way, the truth and the light of the gospel...

Literally, the purpose in coming back was to establish the New Covenant and take the inheritance from Israel, and to give it to all men (salvation being the inheritance).
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Old 01-04-2010, 07:32 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 6,706,076 times
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Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post
I think it is funny trying to pin a label like preterist on the early church... LOL

That is like saying that John was a preterist when clearly he was a present-ist !

John clearly thought with all his heart that Jesus would come soon... He records Jesus himself stating in the vision that he would come quickly.. If that isn't a clear enough statement to the fact that he came quickly.. then I don't know what is...

What reason do futurists have for denying the time statements in Revelation again?

You can argue that Polycarp, Irenaeus, Eusebius, et al. were preterist because they all believed that the New Covenant was in full effect. That would have only been the case if Jesus already came back.

Figuratively, in our lives, we experience the second coming and resurrection the moment we realize the way, the truth and the light of the gospel...

Literally, the purpose in coming back was to establish the New Covenant and take the inheritance from Israel, and to give it to all men (salvation being the inheritance).
On the contrary, it is clear that john was not a preterist ... As his immidiate disciples, Polycarp and Papias, were chilaists and thus futurists who believed in a literal resurrection of the dead and in a literal reign of Christ on earth. If you trust your own imagination or the words of a man(Eusebius) who lived nearly 300 years after the apostle John and his disciples over the apostles Johns disciples themselves i am left to question your reasons for doing so ...

If you want to know what Carl Jung believed concerning psychology, you should study his immediate student and protege Edinger and trust his words over any modern day psychologist or historian on the matter ...

Unless of course you have ample evidence and thus reason to believe that the protege (in this case Edinger for Jung and Polycarp and Papias for John) is a liar. If you believe Papias and Polycarp were liars, then I question what you believe their motivation must have been to lie about their benefactor and teacher, the apostle John.
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