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Old 01-09-2010, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,410,335 times
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[quote=ChristyGrl;12369331]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Good post Harold....What James said falls directly in line with just about every parable Jesus gave.....you can have all the faith in the world but if you have no works, your faith is dead....it will not save. Read the parables of Jesus to see exactly what he said...in alot of them he was speaking directly to believers and because of their failure to do works, they were sent to the outer darkness. God is slowly revealing to me that the Gospel of Cheap Grace or The Faith Alone Gospel is a big fat stinking LIE!!! And anyone who teaches this is failing miserably to lead anyone to salvation...they give them a false sense of salvation that, in the end, will not save them.

God offers each and everyone of us salvation....but it does comes with conditions and responsibilities on our part and is not cheap or free....this is why Jesus expressly said to "count the cost" of following him. Praise God....He has revealed these things to me!!! Like the rich man....we may be called to give up everything (i.e., family, friends, possessions, etc....how many would feel that this cost is too high and walk away? I find that the things, whatever they are, that keep us from making God our first priority are the things He will ask us to give up first....and that will be where the rubber meets the road on the way to obedience and true lasting salvation.
What I am noticing on this thread is not the fact that "works" is wrong or unbiblical but that it is "out of balance". That is the problem that I am having with a few posts on this thread. "Works" is a part of what God wants for us but works is MOTIVATED by grace and love. Without a Christian starting at the beginning and getting the pure milk of the Word that Christian is not going to be mature or strong enough to carry out those works. Anything done in the name of Jesus under a whip or done out of fear or compulsion is not what God wants.

There are those in the church that are hurting others and causing Christians to turn away from their faith because of the legalistic works oriented doctrine that is totally off-balance... This type of thinking is NOT motivated by LOVE and it actually repels people from Christ instead of draws them to Him.

Let me explain, when we are BORN AGAIN we have to go through phases of growth just like a baby, toddler, child. You wouldn't expect a new-born baby or a toddler to clean an entire house, wash a car, or run a business right? Why? Because they aren't physically, mentally or emotionally ready to do so. Wouldn't you say that those activies are works... Yes they are. It is the same with the Kingdom of God.

There are stages of growth and with those stages different levels of responsibility (obedience if you want to call it that or works). For a new Christian the works may be to just "study the Word". After a time of studying the Word the Lord with renew that Christian's mind and heart and call that Christian to serving in the nursery at church or maybe singing on the worship team. So the Christian does so out of obedience and a Love for Christ. That would be an example of what James is saying..

In other words, if a believer is growing in grace and knowledge by being obedient to reading the scripture thus their mind is being renewed they will change and become doers of the Word. The Bible is active and sharper than any two-edged sword. It has the power to change lives and I believe it has the power to produce fruit in the life of the believer. Producing fruit (good works) is a good by-product of time spent with God.

On the hand, if someone KNOWS nothing about Christ, has not been renewed and is doing something to gain approval or acceptance by God this is done in a wrong motivation and God knows the heart or the motivation behind this.. This is called "works based Christianity" and it is just as wrong as cheap grace.. This is the type of legalistic system that says we need to say this and that, give all our money to the poor, dress a certain way, spend five days of the week serving in church, etc, etc or we will not be acceptable to the Lord.. That is not the gospel that I believe in nor do I believe it is coming from the God that I KNOW and Love.

All I am saying is that we need balance. Nothing wrong with grace nothing wrong with works but it is the motivation behind it. God is Love and the things that He desires is that we do all things from a "pure heart" motivated by Love.. not out of duty or compulsion... and we are to grow in our relationship with God. And with growth comes different responsibilities.

Does that make sense???

Balance is the key to this discussion....

Last edited by Raelyn28; 01-09-2010 at 12:48 PM..
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:38 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,486,005 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
YES, I DID GET BEYOND THE MIS-SPELLING OF MY NAME AND BELOW IS AN ANSWER AND EXPLANATION TO YOUR QUOTE AND PASSAGE REGARDING JAMES.

BASICALLY, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT JUSTIFICATION ON THIS THREAD. I ASKED A QUESTION ABOUT "OBEDIENCE" WHICH HAS BEEN MORE THAN ANSWERED BY MY SISTERS AND BROTHERS ON THIS THREAD. I HAVE PRAYED OVER THE SUBJECT OF OBEDIENCE AND STUDIED THE WORD REGARDING THE SUBJECT MATTER. HAROLD, I AM AT PEACE WITH WHAT GOD HAS SHOWN ME AND I AM NOT SAYING AND HAVE NEVER SAID THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE OBEDIENT TO THE LORD. I ONLY STATED THAT I WAS HAVING AN ISSUE WITH THE WORD BECAUSE OF MY OWN TRAMATIC PAST WHICH YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT. I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHY YOU AND I ARE GOING ROUND AND ROUND AND BASICALLY GETTING OFF TOPIC?

BUT SO BE IT. I WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE WHO WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO YOUR POST ABOVE... HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND HAROLD.

This does not contradict Paul's clear teaching that Abraham was justified before God by grace alone through faith alone (Romans 3:20, 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6,11). For several reasons, James cannot mean that Abraham was constituted righteous before God because of his own good works: 1)James already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift (1:17,18) 2)in the middle of this disputed passage ( v 23), James quoted Ge 15:6, which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on the basis of his faith and the work that James said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac (Genesis 22:9,12), an event that occurred many years after he first exercised faith and was declared righteous before God (Genesis 12:1-7; 15:6).

Instead, Abrahams's offering of Isaac demonstated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication before others of a person's claim to salvation. James's teaching prefectly compliments Paul's writings; salvation is determined by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8,9) and demonstreated by faithfulness to obey God's will alone (Ephesians 2:10).

Right - I see - the Scriptures cannot mean what they say.

The logic goes something like this:

That verse cannot mean what it says therefore it does not mean what it says.


Your man says: Salvation is determined by "faith alone" (Eph 2:8,9)


The problem is that when we actually look at the verse:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


It just does not say faith "alone" does it? Please correct me if I am wrong.

However , the apostle James used the words "faith alone".

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Repeat: -> "NOT BY FAITH ALONE"

Your man says: "Justified...by faith alone"

My Man says: "Justified.....NOT by faith alone"

tsk, tsk tsk - don't you just hate it when that happens?

Raelyn, as I said, you will cling to what you want to hear - you did not surprise me.

HK

"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it think." Annon
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:49 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,486,005 times
Reputation: 116
[quote=ChristyGrl;12369331]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Good post Harold....What James said falls directly in line with just about every parable Jesus gave.....you can have all the faith in the world but if you have no works, your faith is dead....it will not save. Read the parables of Jesus to see exactly what he said...in alot of them he was speaking directly to believers and because of their failure to do works, they were sent to the outer darkness. God is slowly revealing to me that the Gospel of Cheap Grace or The Faith Alone Gospel is a big fat stinking LIE!!! And anyone who teaches this is failing miserably to lead anyone to salvation...they give them a false sense of salvation that, in the end, will not save them.

God offers each and everyone of us salvation....but it does comes with conditions and responsibilities on our part and is not cheap or free....this is why Jesus expressly said to "count the cost" of following him. Praise God....He has revealed these things to me!!! Like the rich man....we may be called to give up everything (i.e., family, friends, possessions, etc....how many would feel that this cost is too high and walk away? I find that the things, whatever they are, that keep us from making God our first priority are the things He will ask us to give up first....and that will be where the rubber meets the road on the way to obedience and true lasting salvation.

Christy - that was said about as well as one can say it. The gospel of modern Christianity is not the gospel that Jesus taught. Abraham is the ultimate example - We may all be called to put our own personal Isaac on the altar - to sacrifice the thing we love most as God tests our love for Him.

That concept is abhorrent to the natural man. Paul called it the obedience of faith.

HK

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:54 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,486,005 times
Reputation: 116
[quote][quote=Raelyn28 This is called "works based Christianity" and it is just as wrong as cheap grace.. This is the type of legalistic system that says we need to say this and that, give all our money to the poor, dress a certain way, spend five days of the week serving in church, etc, etc or we will not be acceptable to the Lord.. That is not the gospel that I believe in nor do I believe it is coming from the God that I KNOW and Love.
[/QUOTE]


This is the legalistic system I am talking about:


Mat 19:16 ".... what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him,....but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

HK
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,410,335 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Right - I see - the Scriptures cannot mean what they say.

The logic goes something like this:

That verse cannot mean what it says therefore it does not mean what it says.


Your man says: Salvation is determined by "faith alone" (Eph 2:8,9)


The problem is that when we actually look at the verse:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.


It just does not say faith "alone" does it? Please correct me if I am wrong.

However , the apostle James used the words "faith alone".

Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.


Repeat: -> "NOT BY FAITH ALONE"

Your man says: "Justified...by faith alone"

My Man says: "Justified.....NOT by faith alone"

tsk, tsk tsk - don't you just hate it when that happens?

Raelyn, as I said, you will cling to what you want to hear - you did not surprise me.

HK

"You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it think." Annon
Harold...read my response to christygirls post. I am not saying that works are not a part of what the Gospel teaches. I am saying that faith and works goes together but works does not save a person. I am also saying that works are different for every person depending on their unique standing with God.

And I am saying that works can either be motivated from Love or a renewed mind or done to get something from God that He has already given under compulsion and with the wrong motivation. And that is all that John MacArthur is saying as well. Are you not seeing that? I see it.

Maybe you and I are not understanding one another? What am I not making myself clear with?
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:57 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,410,335 times
Reputation: 564
[quote=Harold Kupp;12371594]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post


Christy - that was said about as well as one can say it. The gospel of modern Christianity is not the gospel that Jesus taught. Abraham is the ultimate example - We may all be called to put our own personal Isaac on the altar - to sacrifice the thing we love most as God tests our love for Him.

That concept is abhorrent to the natural man. Paul called it the obedience of faith.

HK

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
The scripture that you quoted John 3:36 is talking about unbelievers or those who are not saved. You have taken the scripture totally out of context.. Sorry, that doesn't work.. Read the whole book of John next time Harold.
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Old 01-09-2010, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,773,058 times
Reputation: 802
[quote=Raelyn28;12371467]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post

What I am noticing on this thread is not the fact that "works" is wrong or unbiblical but that it is "out of balance". That is the problem that I am having with a few posts on this thread. "Works" is a part of what God wants for us but works is MOTIVATED by grace and love. Without a Christian starting at the beginning and getting the pure milk of the Word that Christian is not going to be mature or strong enough to carry out those works. Anything done in the name of Jesus under a whip or done out of fear or compulsion is not what God wants.

There are those in the church that are hurting others and causing Christians to turn away from their faith because of the legalistic works oriented doctrine that is totally off-balance... This type of thinking is NOT motivated by LOVE and it actually repels people from Christ instead of draws them to Him.

Let me explain, when we are BORN AGAIN we have to go through phases of growth just like a baby, toddler, child. You wouldn't expect a new-born baby or a toddler to clean an entire house, wash a car, or run a business right? Why? Because they aren't physically, mentally or emotionally ready to do so. Wouldn't you say that those activies are works... Yes they are. It is the same with the Kingdom of God.

There are stages of growth and with those stages different levels of responsibility (obedience if you want to call it that or works). For a new Christian the works may be to just "study the Word". After a time of studying the Word the Lord with renew that Christian's mind and heart and call that Christian to serving in the nursery at church or maybe singing on the worship team. So the Christian does so out of obedience and a Love for Christ. That would be an example of what James is saying..

In other words, if a believer is growing in grace and knowledge by being obedient to reading the scripture thus their mind is being renewed they will change and become doers of the Word. The Bible is active and sharper than any two-edged sword. It has the power to change lives and I believe it has the power to produce fruit in the life of the believer. Producing fruit (good works) is a good by-product of time spent with God.

On the hand, if someone KNOWS nothing about Christ, has not been renewed and is doing something to gain approval or acceptance by God this is done in a wrong motivation and God knows the heart or the motivation behind this.. This is called "works based Christianity" and it is just as wrong as cheap grace.. This is the type of legalistic system that says we need to say this and that, give all our money to the poor, dress a certain way, spend five days of the week serving in church, etc, etc or we will not be acceptable to the Lord.. That is not the gospel that I believe in nor do I believe it is coming from the God that I KNOW and Love.

All I am saying is that we need balance. Nothing wrong with grace nothing wrong with works but it is the motivation behind it. God is Love and the things that He desires is that we do all things from a "pure heart" motivated by Love.. not out of duty or compulsion... and we are to grow in our relationship with God. And with growth comes different responsibilities.

Does that make sense???

Balance is the key to this discussion....
Amen and Amen again!!!

I agree 100% with everything you said. I mainly responded because there are so many that teach works/obedience is not necessary at all....they think they can get by and be saved on their faith alone and this goes against everything Jesus taught. I've seen evidence of this teaching on this forum and it really and truly disturbs me because people are being misled to believe that nothing is required of them to keep and maintain their salvation other than believing in Christ. I have even seen posted on this forum that repentance is not required and I can't for the life of me find where they are getting this teaching from....we have to see our sin as God sees it and if we're not sorry or repentant for the things we've done...how can we even begin to change and grow in the Lord. We all grow and we all grow at different stages...some come into maturity faster than others...but we also cannot stagnate with just our faith alone...we have to move on from there to do the works of God.
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Old 01-09-2010, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,410,335 times
Reputation: 564
[quote=Harold Kupp;12371641]
Quote:


This is the legalistic system I am talking about:


Mat 19:16 ".... what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him,....but if thou wouldest enter into life, keep the commandments.

HK
And Matthew 19:16 is out of context as well. The rich man wasn't a believer and had his trust in his riches instead of Christ because he was a rich man. Jesus was telling him to get his priorities straight and put Jesus first as Lord. Once again, read the chapter of Matthew and quote scripture in context Harold...
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Old 01-09-2010, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,773,058 times
Reputation: 802
[quote=Raelyn28;12371735]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post

And Matthew 19:16 is out of context as well. The rich man wasn't a believer and had his trust in his riches instead of Christ because he was a rich man. Jesus was telling him to get his priorities straight and put Jesus first as Lord. Once again, read the chapter of Matthew and quote scripture in context Harold...
What Jesus really showed him was that he wasn't keeping the commandments as he stated he was....he was living in idolatry to his money....thereby breaking the second commandment. Like I said....the cost to follow Jesus is high....and like the rich man, we may be asked to give up something we are idolizing in this life....things that are more important to us than God....that is where true obedience comes in and when God will truly know our hearts and whether we are for Him or against Him.
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Old 01-09-2010, 01:09 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,410,335 times
Reputation: 564
[quote=ChristyGrl;12371702]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post

Amen and Amen again!!!

I agree 100% with everything you said. I mainly responded because there are so many that teach works/obedience is not necessary at all....they think they can get by and be saved on their faith alone and this goes against everything Jesus taught. I seen evidence of this teaching on this forum and it really and truly disturbs me because people are being misled to believe that nothing is required of them to keep and maintain their salvation other than believing in Christ. I have even seen posted on this forum that repentance is not required and I can't for the life of me find where they are getting this teaching from....we have to see our sin as God sees it and if we're not sorry or repentant for the things we've done...how can we even begin to change and grow in the Lord. We all grow and we all grow at different stages...some come into maturity faster than others...but we also cannot stagnate with just our faith alone...we have to move on from there to do the works of God.
Well I am really pleased that you understand what I am saying. I don't at all believe that we can just "skate by" as Christians. In fact, I think we will not have any peace, joy or blessings on this earth living like that. We may get to heaven by the skin of our teeth but we will be miserable on the way. There are rewards for doing things the way God intended for us to do them and if we don't inquire of Him, spend time with Him and know what He wants us to do how will we know? We won't.. and we will live carnal miserable, ineffective lives.

And I do believe that some people think they are saved but perhaps they really are not. I am not going to judge anyone cause only God knows their heart but I would question a believer that doesn't ever bare any fruit in their life as a result of studying the Word.

I also believe that many Christians fail because their minds are not being "renewed". The bible is our "spiritual food" and without it we become atrophied. It is just like physical food, without it we wither and die...

Thanks for sharing..
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