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Old 01-08-2010, 03:36 AM
 
Location: Florida
478 posts, read 600,783 times
Reputation: 298

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
I like this and yes, it is the whole idea of being controlled. I don't do well with the control thing because of my background. I was actually a victim of rape not once but three times and have had some REALLY bad things happen to me.

There really isn't anything in the Bible that I have a problem with doing. And I believe after reading all these awesome responses that I need to do a study on the subject of Obedience because I don't think I understand it as God wants me to.

Thanks so much.
First of all, I just want to say that I'm very, very sorry to hear that you have been through such an ordeal. And I can easily see where the "control" thing would be an issue for you. As well it should. But past experiences aside, honestly, I have to say that your initial instincts were dead on within your initial thread topic, being that you simply did not like the word "obedience". The very word itself is riddled with control, no matter how anyone here has tried to justify it, or its relevance within scripture or anywhere else. Remember that religion is man-made, faith is not. So when you say "I don't think I understand it as god wants me to", I think you're mistaken- god doesn't want you to understand that word, PEOPLE do. Remember that. And your faith, irregardless of how devout it is, has NO need for the word obedience in it anywhere. Call it semantics or whatever, but the very use of that word implies following without any self choice involved- in other words, a form of control. PERIOD. No matter how anyone tries to excuse the linguistics, or candy-coat it, or simply explain it, it is still ALL ABOUT CONTROL, and I'm sorry, but something like that need not apply to someone like you, who has the sense and fortitude to think for herself and make conscious decisions about things. A good example of what I'm talking about is below, and although you were quite gracious about what this person said I, however, will not be so following the below quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevcrawford View Post
Then change the word in your head. Just read the Bible and do what it says. God isn't making you clean your room. By obedience, it just means reading his word and doing what it says.

Is there something in the Bible that you object to and don't want to obey? Or are you just determined not to be controlled? If you're more concerned with the word obedience, you need to do some deep soul searching.

God isn't cracking a whip over our heads. We have a choice of how to behave. Obedience is doing the right thing.
The above is a great example of what you should, and probably did, take issue with when you initially made the post for this thread. "If you're more concerned with the word obedience, you need to do some deep soul searching". ??? Wow, that is disturbing and I really, really hope you do take advice like that with a grain of salt because it is not you who needs to do ANY soul searching. You're just fine. All I can say is that you might want to look WITHIN your soul for the answers- you've already got them, it's obvious. And anyone who might chide you for simply attempting to get feedback or reinforcement about something is the one who should seriously question themselves and what they are about. And when they ask if "you are just determined not to be controlled" as if that's a bad thing, and queried in quite an accusatory, ugly manner...you very well SHOULD be determined not to be controlled! Anyone willing to be controlled is a non-thinking sheep, and the very reason that many people (including myself) have serious issues with organized religions. You're far past such plebeians.

Please, Raelyn, despite all the good you see in what people have said within these posts, stay true to your instincts. They are on target, and whenever you have a "feeling" about something there's a reason, and your instincts are usually right. So I'd say do as you will, take the good out of what people have spoken to you about it on here and live it, but banish the hell out of the word "Obedience" as if it is the "N" word- it's equally offensive, as far as I'm concerned. And remember that any person, organization or religion that insists on using such a word is doing so in order to maintain control. Sometimes it IS about words themselves. I can think of a few to mention but I don't want to get flagged...

Sorry to be so lengthy with my post here, but this is a topic that sticks my craw and I simply couldn't remain silent about it! Good luck to you hon.
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Old 01-08-2010, 09:58 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,513 posts, read 10,843,655 times
Reputation: 4388
Let us consider the whole of the matter. Jesus told us plainly, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".

Cause and effect? I think so.

We know that without Him, we can do nothing; that we are the branch, and He is the Vine - we are to get our very life from Him. If the fulfillment of the commandments are in Him, then isn't it obvious what we are to in order to obey those commandments?

The works are a product of the faith, just as you can cross check that faith is alive by the works. Even Jesus told them, "If I don't do the works of My Father, then don't believe Me". (John 10:37). But we have to realize that it is God working in us, to will and do His good pleasure!

We increasingly give way to His working in us as the flesh is killed off - it's a process. At first, it's a struggle to comply with His word, but even in our failures His will is accomplished - we realize we can't, and we cry out for Him to burn out what is not Him, and replace it with His life.

Just as the Father lived His life through Jesus, we are to be vessels of His life. He does the works. It's not complicated, but it's easy either.

Last edited by little elmer; 01-08-2010 at 10:28 AM..
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Old 01-08-2010, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,413,079 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Let us consider the whole of the matter. Jesus told us plainly, "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments".

Cause and effect? I think so.

We know that without Him, we can do nothing; that we are the branch, and He is the Vine - we are to get our very life from Him. If the fulfillment of the commandments are in Him, then isn't it obvious what we are to in order to obey those commandments?

The works are a product of the faith, just as you can cross check that faith is alive by the works. Even Jesus told them, "If I don't do the works of My Father, then don't believe Me". (John 10:37). But we have to realize that it is God working in us, to will and do His good pleasure!

We increasingly give way to His working in us as the flesh is killed off - it's a process. At first, it's a struggle to comply with His word, but even in our failures His will is accomplished - we realize we can't, and we cry out for Him to burn out what is not Him, and replace it with His life.

Just as the Father lived His life through Jesus, we are to be vessels of His life. He does the works. It's not complicated, but it's easy either.
I believe you and I are on the same page little elmer The reason I wanted to post this thread was because I did want a discussion on it, different aspects, different views and I wanted to take those views, print the entire thread out (which is what I am doing) and study this subject in depth with much prayer asking for GODS revelation.

I have already made much headway and gained so much wisdom from the Lord on this. You are absolutely right.. it is God working in us, to will and do His good pleasure and it is the "working" part that many people don't get.

I am in a place in my own life where I am really weary with legalistic works oriented Christianity.

With that said, I also believe with all my heart that we are not called to just receive Christ and "lay around" or become ineffective but it is only by the study and renewing of one's mind that anyone can change and it is a growing process. It is a daily "dying" to self and I highlight the word daily. It is falling down and getting up and not giving up but asking God to forgive our shortcomings. And as believers we should be doing this often because we are not perfect. Even the apostle Paul said that he wasn't perfect. I would go into quoting scriptures but I am just going to share what is on my heart this time.

Jesus is gracious and the fruit of the Spirit is Patient, Kind, Longsuffering, etc... He KNOWS our heart and he knows everything that went into our life and what we have been through. He also knows what every singel person needs because we were created uniquely. That is why he calls us to bare one another's burdens. He is a God of Love and YES a God of judgement as well but He sees our heart and if our heart is on the road to life and we are seeking Him then He isn't going to hit us over the head with a mallet and say "NOT GOOD ENOUGH". That isn't His nature or His character. He is interested in the condition of our "heart". The Bible says that Jesus himself called the scribes and pharisees "whitewashed tombs". They looked good on the outside but on the inside they were dead.

I also believe after reading many posts on this thread and other posts on this forum that the enemy mingles himself and disguises himself amongst us (His Believers). The Bible says that the thief comes to kill, steal and destroy and that is his mission.

May we all pray that our minds would be renewed, that our armor would remain on and that our senses would be trained to know who the enemy is and the lies that he spreads and may we not receive such lies or accept anything that is contrary to Christ's nature and word. May the lies of the enemy fall straight to the ground and therefore become ineffective and dead in Jesus Name I pray..

Thanks little elmer, your messages are always welcome...
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:19 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,487,223 times
Reputation: 116
[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28

Justification is a gracious gift God extends to the repentant, believing sinner, wholly apart from human merit or work.


Raylyn, I really understand the conflict in your mind. First you see the quote from Paul that only the doers of the law will be justified and then you read (Macarthur's?) quote above. How can a dedicated Christian of such stature be wrong?

So you decide that your commentator must be right and Paul just could not have meant what he said - right?

Now you are going to see an interesting phenomena - I am going to compare your quote with the explicit statements of James and you will see that James specifically says that we are justified by our works. And you are going to ignore the apostle.

Your quote:


"justification.....wholly apart from human merit or work.


James quote:JamesJas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Now comes the interesting part... having seen that your man contradicts James you are probably going to reject the apostle and go with "no works" because that is what you want to believe.

I hope you will surprise me.

HK

Last edited by Harold Kupp; 01-08-2010 at 05:32 PM..
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Old 01-08-2010, 05:30 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,487,223 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
while you were mocking him...Hmm, now isn't that special.
Can you say "obtuse" boys and girls?

"Gasp - A light in the darkness" is mocking him? Your reading skills are questionable but your instincts were right. I was mocking - but not him.


HK

Mat 23:24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel.
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,413,079 times
Reputation: 564
[quote=Harold Kupp;12361269]
Quote:

Raylyn, I really understand the conflict in your mind. First you see the quote from Paul that only the doers of the law will be justified and then you read (Macarthur's?) quote above. How can a dedicated Christian of such stature be wrong?

So you decide that your commentator must be right and Paul just could not have meant what he said - right?

Now you are going to see an interesting phenomena - I am going to compare your quote with the explicit statements of James and you will see that James specifically says that we are justified by our works. And you are going to ignore the apostle.

Your quote:


"justification.....wholly apart from human merit or work.


James quote:JamesJas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Now comes the interesting part... having seen that your man contradicts James you are probably going to reject the apostle and go with "no works" because that is what you want to believe.

I hope you will surprise me.

HK
My name is spelled Raelyn not Raylyn... Thank you..
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Old 01-08-2010, 10:33 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,413,079 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by helios666 View Post
First of all, I just want to say that I'm very, very sorry to hear that you have been through such an ordeal. And I can easily see where the "control" thing would be an issue for you. As well it should. But past experiences aside, honestly, I have to say that your initial instincts were dead on within your initial thread topic, being that you simply did not like the word "obedience". The very word itself is riddled with control, no matter how anyone here has tried to justify it, or its relevance within scripture or anywhere else. Remember that religion is man-made, faith is not. So when you say "I don't think I understand it as god wants me to", I think you're mistaken- god doesn't want you to understand that word, PEOPLE do. Remember that. And your faith, irregardless of how devout it is, has NO need for the word obedience in it anywhere. Call it semantics or whatever, but the very use of that word implies following without any self choice involved- in other words, a form of control. PERIOD. No matter how anyone tries to excuse the linguistics, or candy-coat it, or simply explain it, it is still ALL ABOUT CONTROL, and I'm sorry, but something like that need not apply to someone like you, who has the sense and fortitude to think for herself and make conscious decisions about things. A good example of what I'm talking about is below, and although you were quite gracious about what this person said I, however, will not be so following the below quote:



The above is a great example of what you should, and probably did, take issue with when you initially made the post for this thread. "If you're more concerned with the word obedience, you need to do some deep soul searching". ??? Wow, that is disturbing and I really, really hope you do take advice like that with a grain of salt because it is not you who needs to do ANY soul searching. You're just fine. All I can say is that you might want to look WITHIN your soul for the answers- you've already got them, it's obvious. And anyone who might chide you for simply attempting to get feedback or reinforcement about something is the one who should seriously question themselves and what they are about. And when they ask if "you are just determined not to be controlled" as if that's a bad thing, and queried in quite an accusatory, ugly manner...you very well SHOULD be determined not to be controlled! Anyone willing to be controlled is a non-thinking sheep, and the very reason that many people (including myself) have serious issues with organized religions. You're far past such plebeians.

Please, Raelyn, despite all the good you see in what people have said within these posts, stay true to your instincts. They are on target, and whenever you have a "feeling" about something there's a reason, and your instincts are usually right. So I'd say do as you will, take the good out of what people have spoken to you about it on here and live it, but banish the hell out of the word "Obedience" as if it is the "N" word- it's equally offensive, as far as I'm concerned. And remember that any person, organization or religion that insists on using such a word is doing so in order to maintain control. Sometimes it IS about words themselves. I can think of a few to mention but I don't want to get flagged...

Sorry to be so lengthy with my post here, but this is a topic that sticks my craw and I simply couldn't remain silent about it! Good luck to you hon.
I agree with you but we also much not close our eyes to the word either because it is in the Bible. My whole objective for starting the thread was because I welcomed the comments and posts from others. I have made it a point to print out the entire thread, pray about the different posts and ask God to give me understanding through His Spirit and through His Word.

I totally understand that man is sinful, man makes errors in the interpretation of Scripture, therefore I have sincerely asked God to reveal what He wants me to see. And if I am wrong about any false presumptions or understanding on the word "obedience" I will confess that to God and ask Him to change my heart and forgive me of my sin.

The thing that I have learned from posting this thread and reading all the different responses is... that many Christians believe in Jesus, they do know Scripture but they fail at teaching what they teach out of grace and love. And the Bible says that without love we are noisy cymbals and clanging gongs..

Love is the greatest of commandments and we need to ask God to season us with His love and that everything would be out of Love for one another and the edification and building up of the saints. It is not enough to know scripture on a certain topic or discussion but are we walking in Love?

Are we encouraging and challenging one another in Love? This would be another great thread and prayerfully many that visit this forum would ask themselves that question, because I have been asking it of myself...
And thank God for Jesus, that when I fail (and I do all the time) He forgives me of my shortcomings and I can get up and walk again.



Thanks for your post...
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Old 01-08-2010, 11:08 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,487,223 times
Reputation: 116
Quote:
Quote:

Raylyn, I really understand the conflict in your mind. First you see the quote from Paul that only the doers of the law will be justified and then you read (Macarthur's?) quote above. How can a dedicated Christian of such stature be wrong?

So you decide that your commentator must be right and Paul just could not have meant what he said - right?

Now you are going to see an interesting phenomena - I am going to compare your quote with the explicit statements of James and you will see that James specifically says that we are justified by our works. And you are going to ignore the apostle.

Your quote:


"justification.....wholly apart from human merit or work.


James quote:JamesJas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Now comes the interesting part... having seen that your man contradicts James you are probably going to reject the apostle and go with "no works" because that is what you want to believe.

I hope you will surprise me.

HK
Quote:
My name is spelled Raelyn not Raylyn... Thank you..

Ummmm - did you get past the first word?

HK
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Old 01-09-2010, 01:11 AM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,413,079 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
Ummmm - did you get past the first word?

HK
YES, I DID GET BEYOND THE MIS-SPELLING OF MY NAME AND BELOW IS AN ANSWER AND EXPLANATION TO YOUR QUOTE AND PASSAGE REGARDING JAMES.

BASICALLY, WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT JUSTIFICATION ON THIS THREAD. I ASKED A QUESTION ABOUT "OBEDIENCE" WHICH HAS BEEN MORE THAN ANSWERED BY MY SISTERS AND BROTHERS ON THIS THREAD. I HAVE PRAYED OVER THE SUBJECT OF OBEDIENCE AND STUDIED THE WORD REGARDING THE SUBJECT MATTER. HAROLD, I AM AT PEACE WITH WHAT GOD HAS SHOWN ME AND I AM NOT SAYING AND HAVE NEVER SAID THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE OBEDIENT TO THE LORD. I ONLY STATED THAT I WAS HAVING AN ISSUE WITH THE WORD BECAUSE OF MY OWN TRAMATIC PAST WHICH YOU HAVE NO IDEA ABOUT. I REALLY DON'T KNOW WHY YOU AND I ARE GOING ROUND AND ROUND AND BASICALLY GETTING OFF TOPIC?

BUT SO BE IT. I WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION FOR THE BENEFIT OF THOSE WHO WANT TO KNOW THE ANSWER TO YOUR POST ABOVE... HAVE A GOOD WEEKEND HAROLD.

This does not contradict Paul's clear teaching that Abraham was justified before God by grace alone through faith alone (Romans 3:20, 4:1-25; Galatians 3:6,11). For several reasons, James cannot mean that Abraham was constituted righteous before God because of his own good works: 1)James already stressed that salvation is a gracious gift (1:17,18) 2)in the middle of this disputed passage ( v 23), James quoted Ge 15:6, which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on the basis of his faith and the work that James said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac (Genesis 22:9,12), an event that occurred many years after he first exercised faith and was declared righteous before God (Genesis 12:1-7; 15:6).

Instead, Abrahams's offering of Isaac demonstated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication before others of a person's claim to salvation. James's teaching prefectly compliments Paul's writings; salvation is determined by faith alone (Ephesians 2:8,9) and demonstreated by faithfulness to obey God's will alone (Ephesians 2:10).

Last edited by Raelyn28; 01-09-2010 at 01:43 AM.. Reason: did a study to answer the question changing my original remark.. Original remark not necessary.
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Old 01-09-2010, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,881 posts, read 4,778,275 times
Reputation: 802
[quote=Harold Kupp;12361269]
Quote:


Raylyn, I really understand the conflict in your mind. First you see the quote from Paul that only the doers of the law will be justified and then you read (Macarthur's?) quote above. How can a dedicated Christian of such stature be wrong?

So you decide that your commentator must be right and Paul just could not have meant what he said - right?

Now you are going to see an interesting phenomena - I am going to compare your quote with the explicit statements of James and you will see that James specifically says that we are justified by our works. And you are going to ignore the apostle.

Your quote:


"justification.....wholly apart from human merit or work.


James quote:JamesJas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.


Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.


Now comes the interesting part... having seen that your man contradicts James you are probably going to reject the apostle and go with "no works" because that is what you want to believe.

I hope you will surprise me.

HK
Good post Harold....What James said falls directly in line with just about every parable Jesus gave.....you can have all the faith in the world but if you have no works, your faith is dead....it will not save. Read the parables of Jesus to see exactly what he said...in alot of them he was speaking directly to believers and because of their failure to do works, they were sent to the outer darkness. God is slowly revealing to me that the Gospel of Cheap Grace or The Faith Alone Gospel is a big fat stinking LIE!!! And anyone who teaches this is failing miserably to lead anyone to salvation...they give them a false sense of salvation that, in the end, will not save them.

God offers each and everyone of us salvation....but it does comes with conditions and responsibilities on our part and is not cheap or free....this is why Jesus expressly said to "count the cost" of following him. Praise God....He has revealed these things to me!!! Like the rich man....we may be called to give up everything (i.e., family, friends, possessions, etc....how many would feel that this cost is too high and walk away? I find that the things, whatever they are, that keep us from making God our first priority are the things He will ask us to give up first....and that will be where the rubber meets the road on the way to obedience and true lasting salvation.
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