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Old 01-10-2010, 05:25 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,715,470 times
Reputation: 820

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Box Turtle Bulletin » Stephen Boissoin ruling reversed

Did you read where a gay teenager was beaten up by "a regular visitor to a drop-in center operated by Boissoin"? That was what prompted the court action by Mr Lund in the first place.

Yes- Ms Boisson is once again perfectly free to vilifiy, slander, spread as much misinformation as he wants and preach persecution of homosexuals to his tiny heart's content under the banner of free speech.

Let's just hope no more gay teenagers are bashed or even killed by people who believe his ignorant hate-mongering rubbish.

BTW, Mr Boisson was NOT writing a "commentary on the Bibles perspective of homosexuality" NOR was he made to "renounce his faith" as Mike555 falsely claimed.
Quote:
In 2002, Stephen Boissoin, the executive director of Concerned Christian Coalition, wrote a letter which was published in the Red Deer Advocate (the text of the letter is provided after the break). This letter described gay people as “perverse, self-centered and morally deprived individuals” who “are just as immoral as the pedophiles, drug dealers and pimps that plague our communities.” He “declared war” on gay people and called for Canadians to “stand together and take whatever steps are necessary” to “start taking back what the enemy has taken from you.”
In the U.S. it is entirely legal (for example) for someone to say "Christians are the scum of the earth and have caused all the problems in the world for the last 2000 years. They have the morals of a pack of rattlesnakes. They should all be killed".

Question: Do you believe such a statement should constitute a crime?
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Old 01-10-2010, 06:51 AM
 
15,691 posts, read 5,582,806 times
Reputation: 3670
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
In the U.S. it is entirely legal (for example) for someone to say "Christians are the scum of the earth and have caused all the problems in the world for the last 2000 years. They have the morals of a pack of rattlesnakes. They should all be killed".

Question: Do you believe such a statement should constitute a crime?
The last part of the statement is inciting killing of Christians. If that person went on to actually kill Christians just because they are Christians, then the killing would be a hate-crime and should be prosecuted as such. Or if someone else who had been incited by this person's hate-speech against Christians, then went out and killed a random Christian just because they are a Christian - That's a hate crime because they are killing a random person JUST because of their religion. Should the person promoting violence against Christians bear any responsibility at all for the death of this random Christian even if they themselves didn't actually do the killing?

So what do you think of a person who has been indoctrinated by their pastor to believe all homosexuals are evil perverted pedophiles or somesuch, who then beats up or kills a random homosexual just because they are homosexual? Should the pastor bear any responsibility at all?

I think "hate speech" is an abuse of free-speech because it can often lead to inciting hate crimes. However, I would not want the speech itself to be a crime for 2 reasons:

1. because I believe suppression of speech can be a slippery slope.

2. because I would prefer the hate speech to be out in the open so the people who spread hatred of others can be easily seen for who they really are -bigoted hate mongerers.
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Old 01-10-2010, 07:16 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,715,470 times
Reputation: 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
The last part of the statement is inciting killing of Christians. If that person went on to actually kill Christians just because they are Christians, then the killing would be a hate-crime and should be prosecuted as such. Or if someone else who had been incited by this person's hate-speech against Christians, then went out and killed a random Christian just because they are a Christian - That's a hate crime because they are killing a random person JUST because of their religion. Should the person promoting violence against Christians bear any responsibility at all for the death of this random Christian even if they themselves didn't actually do the killing?

So what do you think of a person who has been indoctrinated by their pastor to believe all homosexuals are evil perverted pedophiles or somesuch, who then beats up or kills a random homosexual just because they are homosexual? Should the pastor bear any responsibility at all?

I think "hate speech" is an abuse of free-speech because it can often lead to inciting hate crimes. However, I would not want the speech itself to be a crime for 2 reasons:

1. because I believe suppression of speech can be a slippery slope.

2. because I would prefer the hate speech to be out in the open so the people who spread hatred of others can be easily seen for who they really are -bigoted hate mongerers.
I agree that we should err on the side of freedom. As far as your other question - maybe a legal scholar could chime in? As I understand the laws - inciting violence (causing a riot for instance) is NOT protected under free speech.

When someone acts on a philosophical view someone else expresses, I'm not sure if the person sharing their views can be held liable.
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Old 01-10-2010, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,936 posts, read 18,523,302 times
Reputation: 9889
1....In the U.S., a person cannot falsely yell "fire" in a crowded movie theatre. But they are free to say just about anything else without danger of criminal prosecution.

A fundamentalist Christian teleminister in the early 1990s advocated the execution of all Wiccans in the U.S.
More recently. A fundamentalist Baptist pastor from Texas advocated that the U.S. army round up Wiccans and burn them alive with napalm.

Recently, Merrill Keiser, Jr., apparently a fundamentalist Christian, entered the 2006-MAY Democratic primary with a platform calling for the genocide by execution of sexually active homosexuals. He told WTOL-TV in Toledo" "Just like we have laws against murder, we have laws against stealing, we have laws against taking drugs. We should have laws against immoral conduct."

All three were immune from prosecution due to the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment which guarantees almost complete freedom of speech in the country.

2....Canadians do not have this level of freedom of speech. Its citizens are not allowed to incite or promote hatred in some circumstance, or to advocate genocide or against certain specified groups, or actually commit genocide. Canadian hate crime legislation affecting persons of all sexual orientation

I think I prefer door #2
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Old 01-10-2010, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,345 posts, read 3,715,470 times
Reputation: 820
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanspeur View Post
1....In the U.S., a person cannot falsely yell "fire" in a crowded movie theatre. But they are free to say just about anything else without danger of criminal prosecution.

A fundamentalist Christian teleminister in the early 1990s advocated the execution of all Wiccans in the U.S.
More recently. A fundamentalist Baptist pastor from Texas advocated that the U.S. army round up Wiccans and burn them alive with napalm.

Recently, Merrill Keiser, Jr., apparently a fundamentalist Christian, entered the 2006-MAY Democratic primary with a platform calling for the genocide by execution of sexually active homosexuals. He told WTOL-TV in Toledo" "Just like we have laws against murder, we have laws against stealing, we have laws against taking drugs. We should have laws against immoral conduct."

All three were immune from prosecution due to the U.S. Constitution's First Amendment which guarantees almost complete freedom of speech in the country.

2....Canadians do not have this level of freedom of speech. Its citizens are not allowed to incite or promote hatred in some circumstance, or to advocate genocide or against certain specified groups, or actually commit genocide. Canadian hate crime legislation affecting persons of all sexual orientation

I think I prefer door #2
If the Muslim extremists start having "kill the infidel" rallies then the free speech thing may be over?
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:21 AM
 
12,878 posts, read 6,956,045 times
Reputation: 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puddy4LyF View Post
As a sidebar, any time you don't give a source for your views, it's intellectually dishonest. When someone asks you SPECIFICALLY for your source and you refuse, like you just did, to give it up... that goes beyond being intellectually dishonest to being completely fraudulent.

Either it's true or it's not true. If the source wasn't credible or it's pretty easy to poke logical fallacy holes through your source, then maybe it's wise not to use this for your thesis in the future.
Poppy ****. It was in the news and I told him to look it up. Where do you think I heard it from? I assume you know how to use Google. Now, if the case was overturned as the other poster says, and I haven't checked,that's fortunate for the pastor. Nevertheless, he had been brought up before the counsel for his article and charged.

Attempts to persecute Christians for their faith are real. And it will get worse.
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:42 AM
 
12,878 posts, read 6,956,045 times
Reputation: 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by firstborn888 View Post
I believe you!!!

1mal·con·tent Pronunciation: \ˌmal-kən-ˈtent\
Function: noun
Date: 1581
: a discontented person: a : one who bears a grudge from a sense of grievance or thwarted ambition b : one who is in active opposition to an established order or government : rebel

You really pegged this one. I am a "malcontent" on SO many levels - it's stunning really.



I feel your pain Mike. Sometimes I wish all who disagree with me would just shut-up as well! Perhaps a more exclusive forum would work better for you? A forum which prohibits dissenting/malcontentic views?

For the record though - I didn't jump in till I saw this go (from the original poster) away from the topic of unjust oppression of Christians to this kind of, mmm, "stuff":


So the Devil promotes a religion that kills gays to... uhm... what? Confuse his real intentions of, promoting pro-gay laws?

Thank God for malcontents. I'm glad you are one of us too Mike because a private citizen should be able to express their views pro and con. It's called free speech and is part of the bedrock of our U.S. democratic freedom.

P.S. Hate/oppression/persecution is a strange thing. It's all fair and non-discriminatory as long as it's against someone else.
I'm not surprised that you don't understand it and try to twist it in an attempt to ridicule it. The Bible makes it clear that homosexuality is a sin. Attempts to pass laws that make it illegal to speak out against homosexuality are at attempt to suppress Biblical truth. Such laws if and when passed become persecution of Christians. Persecution does not only mean torture and martyrdom as exists in certain countries. It also means involves attempts to curtail Christians from speaking the truth.

Now, I have spent enough time replying to your malcontentedness. And I am not a malcontent as you falsely claim.
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Old 01-10-2010, 09:43 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 6,353,571 times
Reputation: 58121
Quote:
Originally Posted by denverian View Post
Uh... it's not just Christians being persecuted in those countries.
Uh....I realize that. This thread is about CHRISTIAN persecution. A very real, very urgent situation that will only get worse. If you want to talk about women in Iran and their persecution then start another thread. We are very aware and sensitive to their plight also but that's not the topic of the thread.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:02 AM
 
12,878 posts, read 6,956,045 times
Reputation: 2382
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymax View Post
Box Turtle Bulletin » Stephen Boissoin ruling reversed

Did you read where a gay teenager was beaten up by "a regular visitor to a drop-in center operated by Boissoin"? That was what prompted the court action by Mr Lund in the first place.

Yes- Ms Boisson is once again perfectly free to vilifiy, slander, spread as much misinformation as he wants and preach persecution of homosexuals to his tiny heart's content under the banner of free speech.

Let's just hope no more gay teenagers are bashed or even killed by people who believe his ignorant hate-mongering rubbish.

BTW, Mr Boisson was NOT writing a "commentary on the Bibles perspective of homosexuality" NOR was he made to "renounce his faith" as Mike555 falsely claimed.
It was a letter. Happy now?

I did not say that he was 'made to' renounce his faith. I said that he was ordered to renounce it by the counsel 'the Alberta human rights commission' that he was brought up before. Here is a link for anyone who is interested.

Canada Orders Pastor to Renounce His Faith*|*Catholic Exchange

Now if the charges were dropped, that is great. He never should have been charged with anything in the first place.

And as a reminder, this thread is NOT about homosexuality. It is about Christian persecution.
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Old 01-10-2010, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Victoria, BC.
24,936 posts, read 18,523,302 times
Reputation: 9889
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Poppy ****. It was in the news and I told him to look it up. Where do you think I heard it from? I assume you know how to use Google. Now, if the case was overturned as the other poster says, and I haven't checked,that's fortunate for the pastor. Nevertheless, he had been brought up before the counsel for his article and charged.

Attempts to persecute Christians for their faith are real. And it will get worse.
Ahh, Then you think prohibiting hate speech that incites harm to others is Christian persecution....I get it now.

By the way pastors get a pass on what they say in the pulpit here, as long as they are not counseling harm to others.

Quote:
3) No person shall be convicted of an offence under subsection (2)
(a) if he establishes that the statements communicated were true; (b) if, in good faith, the person expressed or attempted to establish by an argument an opinion
on a religious subject or an opinion based on a belief in a religious text;
Bill C-250: Encyclopedia II - Bill C-250 - Criminal Code text

What we have here folks is not Christian persecution, but Christian paranoia.
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