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Old 01-13-2010, 02:24 PM
 
702 posts, read 811,881 times
Reputation: 87

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold Kupp View Post
The plan that was predestined was that those who would receive eternal life would be conformed to the image of his Son, - that is they would walk as He walked.

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
I don't see any mention of a plan being predestined. A plan is not the same thing as the carrying out of the plan. The actual conforming was predestined.

Quote:
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
No argument from me about that. Obedience and a righteous walk are telltale signs of regeneration.

Quote:
Most who are called by God's sovereign grace choose to NOT walk as He walked.
If you're implying that most people are sovereignly called in the sense described in the Rom. 8 passage above but nevertheless remain unsaved, that is impossible:

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified." (Rom. 8:29-30, NASB)

God foreknows, predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies.

Quote:
"Many are called but few are elect - (chosen)
That is right. The gospel call goes forth generally to all mankind, but not all are elect from before the foundation of the world. Only those who are foreknown and predestined will also be effectually called. The rest are not called in this particular sense.

 
Old 01-13-2010, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,578,277 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Legalism always attacks grace Raelyn, as we see on this thread. Those who are proud of their self righteous works and think that God is impressed with them, just can't stand to be reminded that salvation is by grace alone apart from works. Yes, they have polluted this thread, but hopefully some people who read the original post will not be distracted by the legalists.
I agree and it is tiring. They don't listen and every post is without love causing them to become the noisy cymbal and clanging gong that Corinthians talks about.

Well my ears are hurting and I have a headache from the constant clashing of the loud noisy gong and I am leaving the room because of it...at least when certain people are there. I am not running but simply removing myself. They can say I am running that I am hiding and really with all honesty...I am. I am running from the gong!!!

I would rather go somewhere to hear the orchestra.

1 Corinthians 13

1IF I [can] speak in the tongues of men and [even] of angels, but have not love (that reasoning, intentional, spiritual devotion such [a]as is inspired by God's love for and in us), I am only a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal
 
Old 01-13-2010, 02:45 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,673 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
What do you do with this passage of scripture then ?.Pay special attention to the bolded words.

8Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.

9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

10Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
You neglected to cite the quote so I can't check the context and wording with the King James version which I personally favor. But it looks like what we are being taught is that not only is the old covenant (the "law") fulfilled in the mission of Jesus Christ, but that if we will only truly LOVE our fellow man we will then do only good to each other and be inclined to keep all of God's commandments.

And your point is?
 
Old 01-13-2010, 02:53 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,459 posts, read 21,199,786 times
Reputation: 17675
MOD MESSAGE

People, this is the Christianity forum ..This is where people who call themselves Christian come to edify, teach and fellowship with each other..We may have different doctrines on salvation and the many other off topic doctrines within this thread, but bottom line is that we are Christians..Can't we discuss our differences without the attacks, insults and sarcasm?

Thread is reopened please be kind and considerate and remember that we attack the idea not the poster..Sarcasm and insults add nothing to a discussion and leads to consequences that neither of your beloved mods like to deal with
__________________
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Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-13-2010 at 05:23 PM..
 
Old 01-13-2010, 07:40 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7403
The issue again is this and only this. That salvation is by one non-meritorious act of faith in Christ. Eternal salvation takes place in that moment of time. And once you have been saved in that moment of time, you are saved forever.

What you do with your spiritual life AFTER salvation is a different matter. God expects the believer to grow up. The growing believer will not want to be continually sinning all over creation. The believer who is not interested in growing up spiritually may or may not care about how much he sins. God handles the believers disobedience as a family matter. (Hebrews 12:5-13; Rev. 3:19-21)

Since Christ paid the penalty for ALL sin in the human race, as per Hebrews 10:10-12, there is no sin that a believer can commit that will cause him to lose his salvation. This is the grace of God. God has imputed His own perfect righteousness to the believer and has pronounced the believer justified. No matter what sin the believer commits after salvation, God sees His righteousness in that believer and remembers that He has already declared that believer to be justified on the basis of faith in Christ (Gal. 3:6; Gal. 3:26). All made possible by the work of Christ on the Cross. If you did not orient to the grace of God with regard to salvation, then you did not trust in Christ alone for your salvation, but depended on something that you did, and therefore you were not and are not saved.

The believer is saved by faith alone in Christ alone, and then he either makes decisions to obey God and grow up spiritually, or he disobeys God and comes under discipline, but that discipline is a family matter. There is no loss of salvation. Ever.

If you do not orient to the justice of God in providing salvation on the basis of grace as a result of the work of Christ on the Cross, by simply believing in Christ for salvation, then the justice of God must condemn you.

John 3:18 ''He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
 
Old 01-13-2010, 07:45 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,810,005 times
Reputation: 1300
What is this OP about............
A. "Salvation is Through Faith Alone In Christ Alone; Not by your Works"
or
B. OSAS

can we just limit it to one or the other?
 
Old 01-13-2010, 08:11 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,673 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
...And once you have been saved in that moment of time, you are saved forever...Since Christ paid the penalty for ALL sin in the human race, as per Hebrews 10:10-12, there is no sin that a believer can commit that will cause him to lose his salvation...
The scriptures tell it differently.


"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12: 31-32

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/12/31-32#31


"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:" Mark 3: 28-29

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mark/3/28-29#28


"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3: 15

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_jn/3/15#15


"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21: 8

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/21/8#8
 
Old 01-13-2010, 08:12 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
What is this OP about............
A. "Salvation is Through Faith Alone In Christ Alone; Not by your Works"
or
B. OSAS

can we just limit it to one or the other?
Actually, they are related. Since salvation is by one single act of placing your trust in Christ for salvation, that one act of trust-faith-belief-dependence on Christ, secures your salvation forever. You have eternal security and can do nothing to lose that. Works and sin have no bearing on it.

God is a God of grace. Grace is everything that God is free to do for man on the basis of the work of Christ on the Cross. God says trust in Him. Not in yourself and your efforts.
 
Old 01-13-2010, 08:23 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,673 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The issue again is this and only this. That salvation is by one non-meritorious act of faith in Christ. Eternal salvation takes place in that moment of time. And once you have been saved in that moment of time, you are saved forever.
I'm curious to know Mike if there is some standard or some central clearinghouse for OSASers where that "act of faith in Christ" is defined or judged so believers in OSAS can know for sure that they have done what is required by your doctrine to be among those apparently very few persons who will not burn forever?

Can you enlighten us on that, or does it not matter what people do as long as they simply think they've done the right thing and actually completed that "non-meritorious act"? (I understand that JW's for example believe that only 144,000 will be saved, and those who are among that number of lucky ones will just know inside that they've been saved? Maybe I've got that wrong, any JW here is welcome to correct me. Is your belief somewhat similar to that of the Jehovah Witnesses, if I got theirs correct?)

What did you do personally that persuaded you that you were from that moment on saved forever regardless of what you might do with the rest of your life?
 
Old 01-13-2010, 10:44 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,638,239 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
The scriptures tell it differently.


"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Matthew 12: 31-32

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/matt/12/31-32#31


"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:" Mark 3: 28-29

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/mark/3/28-29#28
Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31) is simply unbelief in Christ. Jesus was performing miracles through the power of God the Holy Spirit. But the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of performing those miracles by means of Satan. Therefore they were denying that Christ was who He said He was. The unpardonable sin is failure to believe in Christ. That doesn't mean that Christ didn't die for their sin of unbelief. But since the work of Christ on the Cross is applied only to those who believe in Him, a failure to believe in Him results in remaining under condemnation. Jesus states it in John 8:24. ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.

Quote:
"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." 1 John 3: 15

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/1_jn/3/15#15
1 John 3:15 tells us that God equates hatred with murder. A believer who has hatred in his heart is not behaving as a Christian should. He is acting like someone who does not know God. An unbeliever. A Christian is generally not one who would go around commiting acts of murder, (and this is not saying that all unbelievers go around committing murder.) yet if he harbors hatred, he is from God's point of view behaving no different from a murderer. But this is not saying that if a believer hates someone he has lost his salvation. It is simply saying that he is acting no different from an unbeliever. 1 John is addressed to believers and is a family letter from the Father to His ''little children'' who are in the world. From 1 John 3:4 to 3:24 little chidren are being contrasted with children of Satan.

Quote:
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21: 8

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/21/8#8

Regarding Revelation 21:8 I will provide this link which explains it very well.

Does Major Sin Prove a Person Is Unsaved? Revelation 21:8 (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1993/93sep3.html - broken link)
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