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Old 01-14-2010, 06:45 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,318,353 times
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I've been hesitant to jump in here (don't want to shut the thread down...LOL) but wouldn't it be better if the OP read:

Salvation by Christ alone received through faith alone.

Many when hearing the phrase "salvation by faith alone in Christ alone" somehow make the mistake of thinking faith is the deciding or determining factor in their Justification before God, and in so doing deprive salvation it's full glory to none other than Jehovah God alone. This is not what the Protestant Reformation was about, but rather what pagan Rome is about and has been for the last 2,000 years.

Here is an excellent article that covers our Justification before God on the merits of Christ alone, in detail. I posted it on another thread (I think) but it is also applicable here as well:

Justification by Christ Alone By Samuel Richardson

 
Old 01-14-2010, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,957,749 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Yeah, but what fun would that be?
Good point, let's get on with it then...

As you understand the OSAS doctrine, are Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the Old Testament prophets now screaming in agony in some superheated lake of fire and destined to do so forever and ever with no chance of appeal or escape because they didn't do the thing Mike says must be done to be among the very few people according to him that will ever be "saved"?

If you don't think the righteous patriarchs and Old Testament prophets who kept all of God's commandments as they received them have already been thrown kicking and screaming at the injustice of it all into hell by Mike's doctrine, why not? Moderator cut: personal

Last edited by Miss Blue; 01-14-2010 at 07:53 PM.. Reason: PLEASE attack the idea not Mike
 
Old 01-14-2010, 07:52 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,584,835 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
God will not save us in our sins ?????? He saved us in it, read the passage of scripture below, especially the bolded part.

Ever heard of Justice ? Yes the same kind of justice He manifested to you and the rest of us.



6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.


Powerless to do what ? Answer save ourselves from the sin we were/are in.

When was the right time ? Answer when we were still poweless .

Thank God there is a But God thrown into this passage of scripture , and though we worthy of nothing but His wrath instead He demonstrated His love towards us the ungodly while we were at our worst .

What a Savior !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. This is the good News .

But God who is rich in mercy, Hallelujah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, listening to orthodox christianity you would believe He is poor in mercy.
Very good...there is nothing we can do to save ourselves but believe and receive.. The News of Salvation is very good news!!! It is the answer to the dilemma and consequences of sin. The FINAL sacrifice.
 
Old 01-14-2010, 09:37 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,318,353 times
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For those interested in pursing the topic of Justification by Christ alone: Here is an article that sheds more light on the subject and how other reformers have viewed it, particularly Luther who coined the phrase "Justification by Faith alone" and what Luther meant by those words, and how Gill and Brine viewed the subject matter also:

Review-- Justification By Christ Alone
 
Old 01-14-2010, 09:52 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,839,300 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You read and yet you do not comprehend.
There are verses for that:

Matthew 13:14 NIV
In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.'....."


Mark 4:12 NIV
so that, " 'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!' "

Mark 4:12 KJV
"That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."


They will not be forgiven....nor will they recieve help (Do the best you can and God does the rest) as God's reveal word says:

Job 8:20 KJV
Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:

Either you're a perfect man or evil in God's sight.
What makes a person perfect?

Hebrews 10:14 KJV
"For by one offering he [Jesus] hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified"
 
Old 01-14-2010, 09:53 PM
 
20,334 posts, read 15,709,470 times
Reputation: 7472
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
I've been hesitant to jump in here (don't want to shut the thread down...LOL) but wouldn't it be better if the OP read:

Salvation by Christ alone received through faith alone.

Many when hearing the phrase "salvation by faith alone in Christ alone" somehow make the mistake of thinking faith is the deciding or determining factor in their Justification before God, and in so doing deprive salvation it's full glory to none other than Jehovah God alone. This is not what the Protestant Reformation was about, but rather what pagan Rome is about and has been for the last 2,000 years.

Here is an excellent article that covers our Justification before God on the merits of Christ alone, in detail. I posted it on another thread (I think) but it is also applicable here as well:

Justification by Christ Alone By Samuel Richardson
Faith is the determining factor in being declared righteous by God. Until a person places his faith, his trust in Christ, he is not saved, he is not justified. Justification does not occur until the moment you place your faith in Christ. It is at that moment and not a moment before, that God imputes His righteousness to a person. And at the moment that He imputes His righteousness to the person who has believed in Christ, He is then able to declare that person justified.

What did Jesus Himself say? John 8:24 ''I said, therefore, to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.

Unless a person believes in Christ, he will die in his sins. That means that no one is justified until they believe.

What happened on the Cross is that the penalty for sin was paid by Christ. That took the issue of sin out of the way. God the Father was satisfied by the work of Christ on the Cross. Yet, no one is saved until they make a decision to place their trust in Christ. There is no merit in faith. The merit is in the object of your faith. The object of your faith in salvation is Jesus Christ.

Look at it like this. Man has several strikes against him.
1) There is the problem of sin (Rom. 3:23).

2) There is the problem of the penalty for sin (Rom. 6:23).

3) There is the problem of man's physical birth. Man is born physically alive but spritually dead. Which means no relationship with God (Eph. 2:1)

4) Then there is the issue of the character of God (Isa. 6:3). Man cannot measure up to the perfect character of God. Therefore, the next problem is;

5) The relative righteousness of man (Isa. 64:6).

6) Then there is the problem of man's position in Adam. ''For as in Adam, all die.'' (1 Cor. 15:22)


Now, Christ paid the penalty for sin by His spiritual death on the Cross. The problem of sin was handled by Redemption and Unlimited Atonement. Redemption means that we were purchased by Christ from slavery to sin. This involves forgiveness of all sins (Hebrews 9:22). This establishes the BASIS for justification as well as the basis for forgiveness of sin at the moment of salvation through faith in Christ (Rom. 3:24-25).

Unlimited Atonement means that Christ was judged for every single sin that would ever be committed in the human race, past, present, and future. It is impossible to commit a sin for which Christ was not already judged (1 John 2:2).

Now, here is the thing. Both Redemption and Unlimited Atonement are available to everyone, BUT only a person who believes in Christ OBTAINS them. John 1:12 ''But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.''

The basis of justifcation was established at the Cross, but the moment of justification occurs at the moment of faith in Christ. Because of the work of Christ on the Cross, when a person believes in Christ for salvation, God the Father imputes His righteousness to the one believing and then pronounces him justified on the basis of the Cross.

The problem of mans physical birth is taken care of by Regeneration. This is being born again. (John 3:6-7) This occurs at the moment of faith in Christ. (John 3:16)

The problem of man's relative righteousness is taken care of by imputation. Man cannot impress God with his works, his human righteousness. (Isa. 64:6) Since man's relative righteousness cannot have a relationship with God's absolute righteousness, God solves the problem by imputing His absolute perfect righteousness to any member of the human race who simply believes in Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:21 says, ''He (God the Father) made Him (Jesus Christ) who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (Jesus Christ).

Our sins were imputed to Christ on the Cross and paid for by Him. This establishes the basis for justification. Then at the moment that a person believes in Christ, he receives the imputation of God's perfect righteousness and is declared to be justified by God.

Romans 3:26 'To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness,that he might be just, and the justifier of him who believeth in Jesus.

Romans 4:3 'For what does the Scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.''

Man's position in Adam is taken care of by being placed into union with Christ by the baptism of the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:5; Gal. 3:27). This gives the believer a new position in Christ. (1 Cor. 15:22)

With all of these problems taken care of, there is no barrier between man and God. The removal of that barrier is reconciliation.

Eph. 2:12-16 'Remember that you were at one time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13) But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ (spiritual death). 14) For He Himself is our peace (reconciliation), who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall. 15) by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16) and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross. by it having put to death the enmity.

Where the barrier between man and God once stood, Jesus Christ now stands. He is the mediator between man and God. (1 Tim. 2:5)

Because of what Christ did on the Cross on behalf of man, any member of the human race can come to God through faith in Christ and have a perfect standing before God on the basis of having been justified through faith in Christ.

( The above information is based on material from 'The Barrier', by R. B. Thieme, Jr.)
 
Old 01-14-2010, 11:43 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,318,353 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Faith is the determining factor in being declared righteous by God. Until a person places his faith, his trust in Christ, he is not saved, he is not justified. Justification does not occur until the moment you place your faith in Christ. It is at that moment and not a moment before, that God imputes His righteousness to a person. And at the moment that He imputes His righteousness to the person who has believed in Christ, He is then able to declare that person justified.
Let's examine this statement and see if it is according to the Gospel:

1. We are said to be declared righteous (justified) and reconciled to God in Christ's death, while being his enemy.

Part 1 of the Gospel: Christ died for our sins:

1Co 15:3 for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings,

Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

When were you his enemy, before faith or after faith? Before faith. Christ died for you before you believed, when you were His enemy.


2. We are said to be declared righteous (justified) in Christ's resurrection.

Part 2 of the Gospel: Christ was resurrected:

1Co 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings,

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

When was Christ resurrected? Before our faith or after our faith. Before faith.


3. Abraham is said to have believed the promise of God. Was the promise by God given before or after Abraham believed? Before he believed.

Rom 4:21 and having been fully persuaded that what He hath promised He is able also to do:
Rom 4:22 wherefore also it was reckoned to him to righteousness.

Now notice, Abraham believed the promise. Wherefore it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

In the same way for us, when we believe the promise of the Gospel, namely our having been declared righteous (justification) based upon Christ's death and resurrection alone (Part's 1 and 2 of the Gospel above), we are reckoned to righteousness. The promise of God (being declared righteous by Christ in the Gospel) takes place before the reckoning.

Believe the Gospel and know that you the sinner (that includes you Mike555), were justified by Christ alone, according to the scriptures. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Gospel and you are not imputed with the righteousness of Christ.
 
Old 01-14-2010, 11:52 PM
 
696 posts, read 766,416 times
Reputation: 66
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Let's examine this statement and see if it is according to the Gospel:

1. We are said to be declared righteous (justified) and reconciled to God in Christ's death, while being his enemy.

Part 1 of the Gospel: Christ died for our sins:

1Co 15:3 for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings,

Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

When were you his enemy, before faith or after faith? Before faith. Christ died for you before you believed, when you were His enemy.


2. We are said to be declared righteous (justified) in Christ's resurrection.

Part 2 of the Gospel: Christ was resurrected:

1Co 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings,

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

When was Christ resurrected? Before our faith or after our faith. Before faith.


3. Abraham is said to have believed the promise of God. Was the promise by God given before or after Abraham believed? Before he believed.

Rom 4:21 and having been fully persuaded that what He hath promised He is able also to do:
Rom 4:22 wherefore also it was reckoned to him to righteousness.

Now notice, Abraham believed the promise. Wherefore it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

In the same way for us, when we believe the promise of the Gospel, namely our having been declared righteous (justification) based upon Christ's death and resurrection alone (Part's 1 and 2 of the Gospel above), we are reckoned to righteousness. The promise of God (being declared righteous by Christ in the Gospel) takes place before the reckoning.

Believe the Gospel and know that you the sinner (that includes you Mike555), were justified by Christ alone, according to the scriptures. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Gospel and you are not imputed with the righteousness of Christ.
Personally I think you and Mike 555 are saying the same thing but from different angles. It appears to be distinctly seperate, but wholly one. Christ died for our sins, but many cant even admit it. Christ told Thomas that more would be blessed because they have not seen and believe. This is faith. They may seem seperable, but are in fact quite inseperable.
 
Old 01-14-2010, 11:52 PM
 
20,334 posts, read 15,709,470 times
Reputation: 7472
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Let's examine this statement and see if it is according to the Gospel:

1. We are said to be declared righteous (justified) and reconciled to God in Christ's death, while being his enemy.

Part 1 of the Gospel: Christ died for our sins:

1Co 15:3 for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings,

Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;
Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

When were you his enemy, before faith or after faith? Before faith. Christ died for you before you believed, when you were His enemy.


2. We are said to be declared righteous (justified) in Christ's resurrection.

Part 2 of the Gospel: Christ was resurrected:

1Co 15:4 and that he was buried, and that he hath risen on the third day, according to the Writings,

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

When was Christ resurrected? Before our faith or after our faith. Before faith.


3. Abraham is said to have believed the promise of God. Was the promise by God given before or after Abraham believed? Before he believed.

Rom 4:21 and having been fully persuaded that what He hath promised He is able also to do:
Rom 4:22 wherefore also it was reckoned to him to righteousness.

Now notice, Abraham believed the promise. Wherefore it was reckoned to him for righteousness.

In the same way for us, when we believe the promise of the Gospel, namely our having been declared righteous (justification) based upon Christ's death and resurrection alone (Part's 1 and 2 of the Gospel above), we are reckoned to righteousness. The promise of God (being declared righteous by Christ in the Gospel) takes place before the reckoning.

Believe the Gospel and know that you the sinner (that includes you Mike555), were justified by Christ alone, according to the scriptures. If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Gospel and you are not imputed with the righteousness of Christ.
You are not justified until you believe in Christ. I have gone into great detail in my previous post on what is involved in justification.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 12:00 AM
 
20,334 posts, read 15,709,470 times
Reputation: 7472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Personally I think you and Mike 555 are saying the same thing but from different angles. It appears to be distinctly seperate, but wholly one. Christ died for our sins, but many cant even admit it. Christ told Thomas that more would be blessed because they have not seen and believe. This is faith. They may seem seperable, but are in fact quite inseperable.
The Cross made justification potentially available to any member of the human race. But until you believe in Christ you do not attain justification. Justification is the result of being imputed with the righteousness of God at the point of faith in Christ. Based on other posts, this other poster seems to be a universalist of some sort. He is way off base on when and why justification occurs.
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