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Old 01-14-2010, 11:03 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
You are not justified until you believe in Christ. I have gone into great detail in my previous post on what is involved in justification.
We are justified by Christ alone. I'm using the word justified here not the word reckoned. Imputation (being reckoned) with Christ's righteousness is through faith by grace, when we believe the promise of the Gospel in that we are justified on the merits of Christ alone. We're really close here on this Mike...really close. But it's not semantics, it's real doctrine.

 
Old 01-14-2010, 11:14 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
Personally I think you and Mike 555 are saying the same thing but from different angles. It appears to be distinctly seperate, but wholly one. Christ died for our sins, but many cant even admit it. Christ told Thomas that more would be blessed because they have not seen and believe. This is faith. They may seem seperable, but are in fact quite inseperable.
It is true that reckoning does follow justification and is never separated therefrom, except only in time. Those that have been justified at the cross will be reckoned with Christ's righteousness when they believe.

Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,
 
Old 01-14-2010, 11:35 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Cross made justification potentially available to any member of the human race. But until you believe in Christ you do not attain justification. Justification is the result of being imputed with the righteousness of God at the point of faith in Christ. Based on other posts, this other poster seems to be a universalist of some sort. He is way off base on when and why justification occurs.
Well now, the fact that you also do not believe this should not discredit that. Believing the Gospel and it's universal proclamation is another topic all together that might get this thread closed for good if we hit the mat, so to speak...

But I'll leave you with this one scripture :

Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;

I wanted to post it early on but I knew it would cause heart burn for you. I do care about you my friend. But it is scriptural...so why not

Last edited by AlabamaStorm; 01-14-2010 at 11:38 PM.. Reason: typo
 
Old 01-14-2010, 11:46 PM
 
696 posts, read 765,100 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
It is true that reckoning does follow justification and is never separated therefrom, except only in time. Those that have been justified at the cross will be reckoned with Christ's righteousness when they believe.

Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,
I get your point and like Mike555 you guys seem real close. Closer than alot of other things Ive seen lately.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 12:21 AM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
It is true that reckoning does follow justification and is never separated therefrom, except only in time. Those that have been justified at the cross will be reckoned with Christ's righteousness when they believe.

Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,
Reckoning does not follow justification. What Christ did on the Cross only made justification available to the human race. Justification is only attained by anyone who believes in Him for salvation. The potential for justification is not justification itself. You must believe in Christ before God the father counts your faith as righteousness. It is only when a person has been imputed with the righteousness of God that He can declare that person to be justified. Romans 3:26 'For the demonstration I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.'

You are imputed with the righteousness of God at the point of faith and as a result of the imputation for divine righteousness, God declares you to be justified.

Because of the work of Christ on the Cross, when a person believes in Christ for salvation, then God imputes His righteousness to that person. And as a result of the imputation of God's righteousness, a person is justified.

Faith precedes the imputation of divine righteousness, which precedes being declared just by God.

Romans 4:3 'And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.' Abrahams faith preceded him being imputed with God's righteousness. As a result of beng imputed with divine righteousness, he was declared justified.

Justification and Propitiation
 
Old 01-15-2010, 12:54 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Reckoning does not follow justification. What Christ did on the Cross only made justification available to the human race. Justification is only attained by anyone who believes in Him for salvation. The potential for justification is not justification itself. You must believe in Christ before God the father counts your faith as righteousness. It is only when a person has been imputed with the righteousness of God that He can declare that person to be justified. Romans 3:26 'For the demonstration I say, of His righteousness at the present time, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.'

You are imputed with the righteousness of God at the point of faith and as a result of the imputation for divine righteousness, God declares you to be justified.

Because of the work of Christ on the Cross, when a person believes in Christ for salvation, then God imputes His righteousness to that person. And as a result of the imputation of God's righteousness, a person is justified.

Faith precedes the imputation of divine righteousness, which precedes being declared just by God.

Romans 4:3 'And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.' Abrahams faith preceded him being imputed with God's righteousness. As a result of beng imputed with divine righteousness, he was declared justified.

Justification and Propitiation
It was the promise that Abraham believed. The declaration from God that said to Abraham "thus is thy seed". The declaration proceeded Abraham believing:

Gen 15:5 and He bringeth him out without, and saith, `Look attentively, I pray thee, towards the heavens, and count the stars, if thou art able to count them;' and He saith to him, `Thus is thy seed.'

Abraham believed the promise (what God declared) and it was reckoned to him for righteousness:

Gen 15:6 And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him--righteousness.

In like manner, Paul uses that example (God's promise to Abraham and Abraham's faith therein), for us with the promise of the Gospel:

The promise (the declaration of God) is declaring righteous the impious by Christ alone (His death and resurrection for us):

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Those believing the promise:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

Their faith in the promise is reckoned:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

Our justification is the promise given to us in the Gospel. For in it (the Gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed:

Rom 1:17 For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live,'

Those believing the Gospel (God who declares righteous the impious) are reckoned with Christ's righteousness.

Do you see it?
 
Old 01-15-2010, 06:27 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Good point, let's get on with it then...

As you understand the OSAS doctrine, are Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the Old Testament prophets now screaming in agony in some superheated lake of fire and destined to do so forever and ever with no chance of appeal or escape because they didn't do the thing Mike says must be done to be among the very few people according to him that will ever be "saved"?
No, I don't think they are suffering eternal punishment.

Quote:
If you don't think the righteous patriarchs and Old Testament prophets who kept all of God's commandments as they received them have already been thrown kicking and screaming at the injustice of it all into hell by Mike's doctrine, why not? Moderator cut: personal
First and foremost: They were elect from before the foundation of the world. Second: because they had faith.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 06:50 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
No. It was only possible to commit the sin of blaspheme against the Holy Spirit while Christ was on the earth.
Debatable, but it might get us going down a rabbit trail, which is the last thing this thread needs...

Quote:
Jesus Christ was performing His miracles through the power of the Holy Spirit. But the Pharisees were accusing Jesus of performing those miracles through the power of Satan. In doing so, they were denying that Jesus Christ was the Messiah. The Savior. And as long as they denied that Christ was the Messiah, in other words, as long as they continued to reject Him as Savior, they could not be saved. They could not be forgiven (the unpardonable sin) as long as they continued in unbelief.
I agree with all of the above, except the last comment, which I boldfaced. The text never even hints at any possibility of forgiveness. It is not, "They could not be forgiven as long as they continued in unbelief" but rather "They could not be forgiven." Jesus' purpose in saying what he says in these passges is not to deal with unbelief, for he never addresses that problem. Yes, they rejected Christ. Yes, as long as anyone continues to reject Christ they cannot be saved. All, that, though, has nothing to do with what Christ said in the passage because here unbelief is not in view at all. What he is addressing is a special kind of sin. According to Christ, the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is "an eternal sin" and unpardonable "either in this age or in the age to come." Therefore, it cannot be that this horrible sin amounts to unbelief that could one day be remedied, which you seem to be claiming. Anyone who commits this sin has sealed their fate. It is horrifying but true.

Quote:
Blaspheme against the Holy Spirit is mentioned in Matthew 12:22 and Mark 3:22-30.

Look at these two verses.

Mark 3:22 'And the scribes were saying, ''He is possessed by Beelzebul,'' and ''He casts out the demons by the ruler of the demons.''

Mark 3:28 ''Truly I say to you, all sins shall be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they utter; 29) but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin 28) BECAUSE they were saying, ''He has an unclean spirit.''
Mark 3:28 actually proves my point: all sins and blasphemies shall be forgiven but the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Clearly this is a sin that is outside the category of mere unbelief. You can certainly extrapolate the idea of unbelief from the passage, but Jesus' words make it clear that he had no intention of addressing the blasphemers' rejection of him but rather their statements against the Holy Spirit.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 06:55 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
Very good...there is nothing we can do to save ourselves but believe and receive..
And we can't even do that apart from grace. God truly is merciful.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 07:15 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,038,325 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
And we can't even do that apart from grace. God truly is merciful.
Amen....
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