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Old 01-15-2010, 07:32 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
No, I don't think they are suffering eternal punishment.

First and foremost: They were elect from before the foundation of the world. Second: because they had faith.
But did they have faith in Jesus Christ, which I think is the major part of the OSAS qualification to avoid hellfire?

Regarding the "elect": within the OSAS doctrine, were those many righteous in Old Testament times, who were not prophets but who kept God's commandments as best they knew them and as best they could, also "saved" because they were "elect" or are they now all screaming in unbearable pain because a 'loving' 'just' God decided He was bound to follow the 17th century scholarly notion called "OSAS" and hell is where the arm of flesh OSAS scholars and their devotees are even today wanting to send almost all of His children?

Yes I'm being brutally frank, but I hope it's allowed by the mods because I think that's where we need to go to properly examine this in my opinion dark and dangerous doctrine if in fact Mike is correct and it really does call for God to fail and Satan to claim almost all of God's children.

Judging by it's 'fruits' being that God loses, I think OSAS, regardless of how intellectually pretty the doctrine may appear to be on the surface, leaves much to be carefully and prayerfully considered before being adopted by any sincere Christian who believes it Christlike to LOVE and not judge and condemn others because they happen to believe a bit differently than a few other denominations do.


By the way, while I'm thinking of it, were all those in the City of Enoch who were translated and taken to heaven also "elect" and that's why they were "saved?" Does dropping the word "elect" explain why it's probable that righteous people of all times who never had a chance to even hear of Jesus Christ and the OSAS thing that needs to be done to be "saved" are not today burning in hell? (Or in OSAS doctrine are they all gone to hell anyway, including infants and children and those not capable of accountability for their thoughts or actions?)

Last edited by justamere10; 01-15-2010 at 07:40 AM..

 
Old 01-15-2010, 07:36 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
It is true that reckoning does follow justification and is never separated therefrom, except only in time. Those that have been justified at the cross will be reckoned with Christ's righteousness when they believe.
I'm wondering about this. You say that we were justified at the cross, but also that the reckoning of righteousness takes place after faith, implying that justification and reckoning are two different things. In particular you seem to imply that justification took place before faith. What would you make of the following statement of Paul:

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified." (Gal. 2:16, NASB)

Notice the phrase "so that" (hINA in the Greek) which indicates purpose. The phrase preceding hINA is the action that leads to the thing coming after hINA. Gramatically, then, it wouldn't make sense to use this phrase if the justification already took place prior to faith. It would be like saying that, in the following sentence,

"I am facing your direction so that I may see you,"

seeing you takes place prior to facing your direction. That can't be, though. The phrase "so that" clearly introduces an event that is dependent upon the action that preceded the "so that."
 
Old 01-15-2010, 07:51 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
Reputation: 87
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
But did they have faith in Jesus Christ, which I think is the major part of the OSAS qualification to avoid hellfire?
That's tough to say. They definitely had faith, though.

Quote:
Regarding the "elect": within the OSAS doctrine, were those many righteous in Old Testament times, who were not prophets but who kept God's commandments as best they knew them and as best they could, also "saved" because they were "elect" or are they now all screaming in unbearable pain because a 'loving' 'just' God decided He was bound to follow the 17th century scholarly notion called "OSAS" and hell is where the arm of flesh scholars are even today wanting to send almost all of His children?
Do you realize that if you tried saying all that in person you'd run out of breath?

First of all, I don't associate myself with "OSAS" but rather with "Perseverance of the Saints." There are subtle differences in how these doctrines are understood.

Second, as to your question: My answer is yes. If a person is saved, it is primarily because he/she is elect from before the foundation of the world.

Quote:
By the way, while I'm thinking of it, were all those in the City of Enoch who were translated and taken to heaven also "elect" and that's why they were "saved?" Does dropping the word "elect" explain why it's probable that righteous people of all times who never had a chance to even hear of Jesus Christ and the OSAS thing that needs to be done to be "saved" are not today burning in hell?
I don't understand the question. Could you rephrase it?
 
Old 01-15-2010, 08:10 AM
 
20,290 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
It was the promise that Abraham believed. The declaration from God that said to Abraham "thus is thy seed". The declaration proceeded Abraham believing:

Gen 15:5 and He bringeth him out without, and saith, `Look attentively, I pray thee, towards the heavens, and count the stars, if thou art able to count them;' and He saith to him, `Thus is thy seed.'

Abraham believed the promise (what God declared) and it was reckoned to him for righteousness:

Gen 15:6 And he hath believed in Jehovah, and He reckoneth it to him--righteousness.

In like manner, Paul uses that example (God's promise to Abraham and Abraham's faith therein), for us with the promise of the Gospel:

The promise (the declaration of God) is declaring righteous the impious by Christ alone (His death and resurrection for us):

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Those believing the promise:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

Their faith in the promise is reckoned:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

Our justification is the promise given to us in the Gospel. For in it (the Gospel) the righteousness of God is revealed:

Rom 1:17 For the righteousness of God in it is revealed from faith to faith, according as it hath been written, `And the righteous one by faith shall live,'

Those believing the Gospel (God who declares righteous the impious) are reckoned with Christ's righteousness.

Do you see it?
I have already given in great detail in post #276 what is involved in justification. Justification is the end result of what Christ has done on the Cross. Until you believe in Christ you are not imputed with God's righteousness, and until you are imputed with God's righteousness you are not justified. The availability of justification does not become the attainment of justification in any persons life until that person believes in Christ. Until a person believes in Christ he remains under eternal condemnation and destined for the lake of fire.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
That's tough to say. They definitely had faith, though.

Do you realize that if you tried saying all that in person you'd run out of breath?

First of all, I don't associate myself with "OSAS" but rather with "Perseverance of the Saints." There are subtle differences in how these doctrines are understood.

Second, as to your question: My answer is yes. If a person is saved, it is primarily because he/she is elect from before the foundation of the world.

I don't understand the question. Could you rephrase it?
Yeah, I'm a bit wordy sometimes, probably need a new keyboard, but recession times you know...

For non-insiders like me "OSAS" covers it all and I'll continue to use those letters to include all variations. But ok, please respond within your own understanding of the once saved doctrine as you subscribe to it, thanks. (I'd talk directly with Mike to get his views but I don't think he and I are even on polite speaking terms at the moment and important blue helmets are watching.)


As you understand OSAS then, simply having faith (in something, anything?) is sufficient to qualify for deliverance from hellfire and damnation, or does everyone who ever lived on earth need to have faith specifically in Jesus Christ to qualify, and all else go to hell?

Is it your understanding that only people who don't wake up with an unquenchable burning pain all over after they die know that they are "elect"? Otherwise is the concept of "elect" just a convenient way to "explain" what I see as a major breach in the OSAS tower?

In other words, as I see it, the doctrine cannot validly justify hellfire for everyone who lived before the ministry of Jesus Christ, so the scholars just avoid the problem by dropping a certain word? And isn't there a prophesy somewhere that in the last days things will get so heated up here that even some of the ELECT will be deceived and lost?

Do you think that only a few of God's children are "saved" because before they were even born God threw dice or whatever and decided he would or wouldn't throw that child of His into fire forever regardless of what he or she did or didn't do during their mortal experience? Wouldn't that be similar to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses that only 144,000 are "saved"? (If I understand their beliefs correctly.)


My point about the City of Enoch is that its inhabitants were taken up to heaven and thus obviously "saved". But they lived long before the ministry of Jesus Christ and OSAS. Is your personal explanation for that to just drop the "elect" word and go about your business still blindly believing that the scholars have it all worked out and OSAS is the only way to go?


Have you ever sincerely fasted and prayed to personally find out from God via His Holy Spirit that the OSAS theory is true, or do you just accept what your church leaders tell you? I mean, it's pretty important when you consider the consequences for all sincere good-living people who don't believe the OSAS scholars and that under that doctrine (as Mike teaches it) Satan wins and God loses...

Last edited by justamere10; 01-15-2010 at 08:54 AM..
 
Old 01-15-2010, 09:19 AM
 
20,290 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Good point, let's get on with it then...

As you understand the OSAS doctrine, are Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the Old Testament prophets now screaming in agony in some superheated lake of fire and destined to do so forever and ever with no chance of appeal or escape because they didn't do the thing Mike says must be done to be among the very few people according to him that will ever be "saved"?

If you don't think the righteous patriarchs and Old Testament prophets who kept all of God's commandments as they received them have already been thrown kicking and screaming at the injustice of it all into hell by Mike's doctrine, why not? Moderator cut: personal
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and every Old Testament saint believed in Christ as He was presented to and known by them during their dispensation and as a result they were saved. They were NOT saved by the Law. Thoughout all of human history, salvation is through faith in Christ. The Old Testament saints looked forward to the Cross. They looked forward to the promised Messiah. Since the time that Christ went to the Cross, we look back at the Cross.

What does Romans 4:2-3 say? 'For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about; BUT NOT BEFORE GOD. 3) For what does the Scripture say? ''And Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.''

Those who simply believe in Christ WITHOUT adding ANYTHING to their faith have eternal salvation. Eternal security.

Anyone, Everyone, who does NOT simply believe in Christ FOR SALVATION remains under eternal condemnation and is head for the eternal lake of fire, with no hope of escape.

John 3:18 'He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already; because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.''

John 3:36 ' He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey (the command to believe) shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

John 8:24 'I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.'

Matthew 25:41 'Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed one, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the rigteous into eternal life.''

Matthew 10:28 ''And do not fear those who kill the body, but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him (God) who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.''

Anyone who makes a decision to trust in Christ has in that moment of time passed from death into life. Eternal salvation, eternal security.

On the other hand, anyone who does not simply trust in Christ for salvation, and that includes everyone who does not even believe in God at all and so are atheists, but it also include those who do believe in God and understand that Christ is God, BUT, they don't simply place their trust in Christ. Rather, they think that they must add something to belief. Thy add works to their faith, thinking that they must do ANYTHING in order in order to impress God and somehow contribute to their salvation. These people have not trusted totally in Christ but on their works and therefore are not saved and will at the moment of death find themselves in Hades in 'Torments', and at the end of the Millennium they will be resurrected and appear before Christ at the Great White Throne, where they will receive final sentencing to the eternal lake of fire. And there they will remain throughout all eternity without end, without hope of escape. (Revelation 20:11-15).

'Jesus said to him. ''I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me.'' (John 14:6)

There is no salvation except through Christ. That means that all who do not know Christ are lost. Everyone who is depending on some religion of the world, or some cult to save them, is lost unless they come to come to Christ and set aside their efforts to earn salvation. If anyone adds ANYTHING to faith, as a condition for salvation, whether it is baptism, or any other ordinance, joining a church, walking an isle, feeling sorry for your sins, or if anyone thinks they must give up something, drinking beer for example; if anyone believes they must do anything other then simply trust in Christ as a condition for salvation, THEN THEY ARE NOT SAVED BECAUSE THEY HAVE NOT BELIEVED THE WORD OF GOD.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 09:21 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Yeah, I'm a bit wordy sometimes, probably need a new keyboard, but recession times you know...

For non-insiders like me "OSAS" covers it all and I'll continue to use those letters to include all variations. But ok, please respond within your own understanding of the once saved doctrine as you subscribe to it, thanks.
Well, like I said, I prefer the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. OSAS tends to convey--or at least people somehow interpret it this way--that a Christian can do whatever he wants and still remain saved. Although theoretically I agree with that, I don't think that a true Christian does whatever he wants. Salvation does not consist solely in faith in Christ; it also consists in holy, righteous living as a result of that initial saving faith and continuing throughout the Christian's life. Salvation is a "package," so to speak, consisting of many parts: Election, predestination, calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, sanctification, glorification, and so on. God is the author of all of these. What does that mean for our topic? Simply this: Since all of these components are necessary components of the overall salvation "package," faithfulness to God and perseverance in holiness will (not may, but will) be a part of the Christian life. I fear that OSAS perhaps does not convey these important truths, thus leading to pointless questions like, "So, are you saying that a believer can just sin his heart away and still end up in heaven?"

Quote:
As you understand OSAS then, simply having faith (in something, anything?) is sufficient to qualify for deliverance from hellfire and damnation, or does everyone who ever lived on earth need to have faith specifically in Jesus Christ to qualify, and all else go to hell?
I answer this tentatively, since it is a tricky issue, but I'd say that for us today, now that the gospel has been revealed in full, the object of faith must be Christ. In the case of Abraham, however, it seems to have been different, with the object of faith being God himself and his promise regarding the gospel: "Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." "(Galatians 3:6-8, NASB) In both cases, though, the common denominator is faith in God's promise.


Quote:
Is it your understanding that only people who don't wake up with an unquenchable burning pain all over after they die know that they are "elect"?
No, it's possible to make one's calling and election sure in this life, as Peter exhorted his readers to do in 2 Peter 1:10: "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you."

Quote:
Otherwise is the concept of "elect" just a convenient way to "explain" what I see as a major breach in the OSAS tower? In other words, as I see it, the doctrine cannot validly justify hellfire for everyone who lived before the ministry of Jesus Christ, so the scholars just avoid the problem by dropping a certain word?
I don't think the doctrine of election is needed to justify hellfire for everyone who lived before the ministry of Christ. The only doctrine needed for this is the doctrine of sin. People are punished in hell for sin. It's that simple. The knowledge of God revealed in general revelation (creation) is enough to leave mankind without excuse, with or without the gospel, since people commit idolatry even though they know it is wrong.

Quote:
And isn't there a prophesy somewhere that in the last days things will get so heated up here that even some of the ELECT will be deceived and lost?
I think you're referring to this passage: "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect" (Mt. 24:24). But Christ said, "if possible."

Quote:
Do you think that only a few of God's children are "saved" because before they were even born God threw dice or whatever and decided he would or wouldn't throw that child of His into fire forever regardless of what he or she did or didn't do during their mortal experience? Wouldn't that be similar to the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses that only 144,000 are "saved"? (If I understand their beliefs correctly.)
I don't know all about JW beliefs, but I do think that a limited number of people are elect from before the foundation of the world:

"And not only this, but there was Rebekah also, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER." Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED." (Romans 9:10-13)


Quote:
My point about the City of Enoch is that its inhabitants were taken up to heaven and thus obviously "saved". But they lived long before the ministry of Jesus Christ and OSAS. Is your personal explanation for that to just drop the "elect" word and go about your business still blindly believing that the scholars have it all worked out and OSAS is the only way to go?
I don't know about this "City of Enoch," as it doesn't seem to be in scripture, so I can't speak to that, nor will I try to explain it.

Quote:
Have you ever sincerely fasted and prayed to personally find out from God via His Holy Spirit that the OSAS theory is true, or do you just accept what your church leaders tell you?
For me, the Bible in the sole infallible authority for all matters pertaining to Christian faith and practice. I've been reading and studying it for a long time, and in that manner I've found out that PotS as I've explained it above is biblical.

Last edited by Jremy; 01-15-2010 at 09:35 AM..
 
Old 01-15-2010, 09:38 AM
 
20,290 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
That's tough to say. They definitely had faith, though.
We know Him as Jesus Christ. In O.T. times they looked forward to the Messiah who was promised to come. They knew that a Savior was to come and to die for their sins and they had faith in that Messiah. The animal sacrifices were a picture or type of the Messiah and what He would do on the Cross.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 09:47 AM
 
702 posts, read 811,783 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
We know Him as Jesus Christ. In O.T. times they looked forward to the Messiah who was promised to come. They knew that a Savior was to come and to die for their sins and they had faith in that Messiah. The animal sacrifices were a picture or type of the Messiah and what He would do on the Cross.
True, but what about before the temple and the ritual sacrifices were established?
 
Old 01-15-2010, 10:05 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,312,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I'm wondering about this. You say that we were justified at the cross, but also that the reckoning of righteousness takes place after faith, implying that justification and reckoning are two different things. In particular you seem to imply that justification took place before faith. What would you make of the following statement of Paul:

"nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified." (Gal. 2:16, NASB)

Notice the phrase "so that" (hINA in the Greek) which indicates purpose. The phrase preceding hINA is the action that leads to the thing coming after hINA. Gramatically, then, it wouldn't make sense to use this phrase if the justification already took place prior to faith. It would be like saying that, in the following sentence,

"I am facing your direction so that I may see you,"

seeing you takes place prior to facing your direction. That can't be, though. The phrase "so that" clearly introduces an event that is dependent upon the action that preceded the "so that."
Let me see if I can help out here:

Most modern translations obscure this passage of scripture. Here is the reading using a more literal translation (the YLT), it also reads like this in the KJV and the earlier translations (Bishops Bible, Geneva Bible) so you can also see it there too:

Gal 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'

and again:

Gal 3:22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.

The promise of the Gospel, our Justification before God, is based on the work of Christ alone. When faith is spoken of here, it is by the faith of Christ, His faithfulness in doing His Father's will that saved us.

But let me ask you, when was Saul reconciled to God? On the road to Damascus while breathing threats against Christ, or after having seen the risen Christ? Paul tells us here:

Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.

And what exactly caused Paul to be justified in this state of enmity towards God? Paul tells us here:

Rom 5:8 and God doth commend His own love to us, that, in our being still sinners, Christ did die for us;
Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood
, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

It is through the death and resurrection of Christ, wherein Paul was justified alone in Christ.
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