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Old 01-15-2010, 11:13 AM
 
702 posts, read 813,440 times
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This looks like a helpful article that highlights the differences between the doctrines of "Once Saved Always Saved" and "Perseverance of the Saints"...

Perseverance of the saints - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 
Old 01-15-2010, 11:19 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,318,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I have already given in great detail in post #276 what is involved in justification. Justification is the end result of what Christ has done on the Cross. Until you believe in Christ you are not imputed with God's righteousness, and until you are imputed with God's righteousness you are not justified. The availability of justification does not become the attainment of justification in any persons life until that person believes in Christ. Until a person believes in Christ he remains under eternal condemnation and destined for the lake of fire.
Being justified in Christ alone is the promise to those who hear the proclamation of the Gospel. Those who believe the promise (the Gospel) are reckoned with Christ's righteousness.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 11:27 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,957,970 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and every Old Testament saint believed in Christ as He was presented to and known by them during their dispensation and as a result they were saved. They were NOT saved by the Law. Thoughout all of human history, salvation is through faith in Christ. The Old Testament saints looked forward to the Cross. They looked forward to the promised Messiah. Since the time that Christ went to the Cross, we look back at the Cross...
Maybe we are still talking.

I agree with some of what you are saying. It is my belief that Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament was none other than Jesus Christ of the New Testament, and that his coming to work out the atonement was well known to prophets of old long before it actually happened. (Animal sacrifice was a type of the future sacrifice of God's own Son.)

But keep in mind that the Old Testament is a record of the Jews and their interaction with God and the laws from Him that they knew in their time. Even today almost all of those same Jews do not accept Jesus Christ as other than a prophet if that, and not their Messiah Savior. So, under your extremely harsh and in my opinion unjust doctrine, most of the Old Testament Jews (God's favored people) and probably all other of God's children who ever lived on this planet are now burning in hell not even knowing why or how they deserved such a fate. I do not believe that to be true, I believe Heavenly Father to be perfectly loving and perfectly JUST!


But please, don't continue to go on and on about being "saved" by law or works! I think most if not all knowledgeable Christians believe firmly that they are saved by Jesus Christ, not by works. But they also believe that they need to keep God's commandments and that they will be judged by how well they did that and assigned a place in eternity according to that judgment.

As I see it, this whole argument could possibly be settled by reaching an acceptable definition of the concept of "salvation" and of what life will be like in "heaven." (And ceasing to aggressively push the notion that Satan's plan will be more successful than God's and almost all of God's children will end up in hell simply because they didn't know of or didn't bow down to the highly arbitrary and for some repugnant OSAS package of beliefs.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 11:31 AM
 
20,335 posts, read 15,713,584 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Being justified in Christ alone is the promise to those who hear the proclamation of the Gospel. Those who believe the promise (the Gospel) are reckoned with Christ's righteousness.
There you go.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 11:50 AM
 
702 posts, read 813,440 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Let me see if I can help out here:

Most modern translations obscure this passage of scripture. Here is the reading using a more literal translation (the YLT), it also reads like this in the KJV and the earlier translations (Bishops Bible, Geneva Bible) so you can also see it there too:

Gal 2:16 having known also that a man is not declared righteous by works of law, if not through the faith of Jesus Christ, also we in Christ Jesus did believe, that we might be declared righteous by the faith of Christ, and not by works of law, wherefore declared righteous by works of law shall be no flesh.'
I don't see how this helps. The text is essentially the same as I quoted earlier: the believing is antecedent to the being declared righteous as indicated by the word hINA.

Quote:
Gal 3:22 but the Writing did shut up the whole under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ may be given to those believing.

The promise of the Gospel, our Justification before God, is based on the work of Christ alone. When faith is spoken of here, it is by the faith of Christ, His faithfulness in doing His Father's will that saved us.
This is going to be interesting. There are various Greek constructions that have been translated "faith in Christ" or "faith of Christ." The one you refer to here is πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, pistews Ihsou Christou. "Jesus Christ" is in the genitive case, which sometimes indicates possession, but not always. That's why it is sometimes translated "faith of Jesus Christ."

In the passage I quoted earlier, Gal. 2:16, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ," both phrases "faith of Jesus Christ" are in the Genitive in the Greek: "πίστεως Χριστοῦ," which can indicate possession. In the phrase he uses to refer to what he himself did--"we have believed in Jesus Christ"--the phrase is "εἰς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν," "in/into Christ Jesus." So it would appear that we have both: the faith of Jesus Christ and faith in Jesus Christ, unless...

The use of the genitive in these phrases does not indicate possession but an object. The genitive case has many uses, not just possession, and it could be that in this case it is the objective genitive, indicating that Christ is the object of the believing rather than the possessor of the believing.

It gets even more interesting. The phrasing in the Greek is different, however, in Gal. 3:26: "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." The phrase "faith in Christ Jesus" is the Greek phrase, "πίστεως ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ" (pistews en Christou Ihsou) -- i.e., not the genitive case but the dative case -- Christwi -- which does not indicate "of Christ" but rather, as the translation says, "in Christ."

The same occurs in 2 Timothy 3:15: "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." The Greek there is "διὰ πίστεως τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ" -- through (by means of) faith in (not of) Christ Jesus.

And then there is Acts 24:24: "And after certain days when Felix came with his wife Drusilla which was a Jewess he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ."

Here the phrase is "εἰς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν πίστεως," which is neither the genitive nor the dative but the accusative: faith into/in Christ Jesus."

There are likely other examples, but I don't have time right now to research them all.

Quote:
But let me ask you, when was Saul reconciled to God? On the road to Damascus while breathing threats against Christ, or after having seen the risen Christ? Paul tells us here:
He was reconciled upon believing, as he himself said in Gal. 2:16.

Quote:
Rom 5:10 for if, being enemies, we have been reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved in his life.
Yes, we were enemies at the time that we believed and were justified, but faith turned that around.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 12:09 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,957,970 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Well, like I said, I prefer the Reformed doctrine of Perseverance of the Saints. OSAS tends to convey--or at least people somehow interpret it this way--that a Christian can do whatever he wants and still remain saved. Although theoretically I agree with that, I don't think that a true Christian does whatever he wants. Salvation does not consist solely in faith in Christ; it also consists in holy, righteous living...

I answer this tentatively, since it is a tricky issue, but I'd say that for us today, now that the gospel has been revealed in full, the object of faith must be Christ. In the case of Abraham, however, it seems to have been different, with the object of faith being God himself and his promise regarding the gospel: ... In both cases, though, the common denominator is faith in God's promise.

No, it's possible to make one's calling and election sure in this life, as Peter exhorted his readers to do in 2 Peter 1:10: "Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you."

I don't think the doctrine of election is needed to justify hellfire for everyone who lived before the ministry of Christ. The only doctrine needed for this is the doctrine of sin. People are punished in hell for sin. It's that simple. The knowledge of God revealed in general revelation (creation) is enough to leave mankind without excuse, with or without the gospel, since people commit idolatry even though they know it is wrong.

...I don't know all about JW beliefs, but I do think that a limited number of people are elect from before the foundation of the world...


For me, the Bible in the sole infallible authority for all matters pertaining to Christian faith and practice. I've been reading and studying it for a long time, and in that manner I've found out that PotS as I've explained it above is biblical.
Good post, thanks, you appear to be a sincere and honest person who is not just going all out in an aggressive attempt to promote and shove through some specific denominational dogma. (Though I admit that I too can be perhaps unduly provocative at times.)

You wrote: "Salvation does not consist solely in faith in Christ". Wow, your beliefs are different than what I understand Mike to be teaching! I think under Mike's rules you and I are both going to be wishing for cooler climes.


I understand that it is possible (through exceptionally righteous living and much faith) to make one's calling and election sure in this lifetime. In my own understanding, such an event would most likely be accompanied by an ordinance performed by one with authority from God.


You write: "People are punished in hell for sin." My understanding is that "sin" consists of being disobedient to God, either an act of commission, or an omission of something He made us aware of and commanded us to do or not do. But in Mike's view that would probably be moving into the "works" arena and he would probably disagree with you. (Though OSAS as he explains it appears to be an exceedingly complex doctrine that includes a whole bunch of constructions to 'explain' the many breaches in the tower OSAS scholars built.)


I believe that God has chosen and foreordained (not predestined, they still have their agency to choose) some of his spirits from before the foundation of this world to, like Jesus, carry out certain missions when it came their turn for a mortal experience. But I think Mike does not believe that we lived as spirit children before being born of earthly parents so again, as I see it, another breach in the critically leaning tower of OSAS.

"Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world." John 17: 24

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/john/17/24#24


You wrote: "the Bible is the sole infallible authority." Sometimes I would that it were that simple!

But it seems obvious in this and other religion threads and as evidenced by the existence of apparently about 38,000 different Christian denominations that man must INTERPRET the books scholars chose to put into the bible and that nobody's interpretation of bible verses is likely so superior to anyone else's that they can speak infallibly for all Christians everywhere.

For me, only GOD and Jesus Christ are infallible and it is THEY who should be appealed to directly when things perceived pertinent to one's salvation are being considered.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/james/1/5#5
 
Old 01-15-2010, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,128,346 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
First of all, I don't associate myself with "OSAS" but rather with "Perseverance of the Saints." There are subtle differences in how these doctrines are understood.
Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Reve 22:14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Have you ever seen these verses? And how do you or anyone who believes in the "faith alone gospel" reconcile it especially when it says....The saints are those who keep Gods commandments and faith in Jesus....so one can't be excluded from the other nor can one be replaced for the other.....you have to have both. Keeping Gods commandments is more than just believing as is clearly evidenced from above.

I can't wait to see the spin ya'll put on these.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 12:39 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,318,676 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
I don't see how this helps. The text is essentially the same as I quoted earlier: the believing is antecedent to the being declared righteous as indicated by the word hINA.

This is going to be interesting. There are various Greek constructions that have been translated "faith in Christ" or "faith of Christ." The one you refer to here is πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, pistews Ihsou Christou. "Jesus Christ" is in the genitive case, which sometimes indicates possession, but not always. That's why it is sometimes translated "faith of Jesus Christ."

In the passage I quoted earlier, Gal. 2:16, "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by the faith of Jesus Christ even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be justified by the faith of Christ," both phrases "faith of Jesus Christ" are in the Genitive in the Greek: "πίστεως Χριστοῦ," which can indicate possession. In the phrase he uses to refer to what he himself did--"we have believed in Jesus Christ"--the phrase is "εἰς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν," "in/into Christ Jesus." So it would appear that we have both: the faith of Jesus Christ and faith in Jesus Christ, unless...

The use of the genitive in these phrases does not indicate possession but an object. The genitive case has many uses, not just possession, and it could be that in this case it is the objective genitive, indicating that Christ is the object of the believing rather than the possessor of the believing.

It gets even more interesting. The phrasing in the Greek is different, however, in Gal. 3:26: "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus." The phrase "faith in Christ Jesus" is the Greek phrase, "πίστεως ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ" (pistews en Christou Ihsou) -- i.e., not the genitive case but the dative case -- Christwi -- which does not indicate "of Christ" but rather, as the translation says, "in Christ."

The same occurs in 2 Timothy 3:15: "And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." The Greek there is "διὰ πίστεως τῆς ἐν Χριστῷ Ἰησοῦ" -- through (by means of) faith in (not of) Christ Jesus.

And then there is Acts 24:24: "And after certain days when Felix came with his wife Drusilla which was a Jewess he sent for Paul and heard him concerning the faith in Christ."

Here the phrase is "εἰς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν πίστεως," which is neither the genitive nor the dative but the accusative: faith into/in Christ Jesus."

There are likely other examples, but I don't have time right now to research them all.

He was reconciled upon believing, as he himself said in Gal. 2:16.

Yes, we were enemies at the time that we believed and were justified, but faith turned that around.
There is a really good book that goes into this even deeper. May I recommend it to you?:

Amazon.com: The Faith of Jesus Christ: The Narrative Substructure of Galatians 3:1-4:11 (The Biblical Resource Series) (9780802849571): Richard B. Hays, Luke Timothy Johnson: Books

But I think you've missed the whole point of Christ's death and resurrection and what that work on the cross accomplished for us. Paul states we were justified in the death and resurrection of Christ. It is not waiting to happen, it was accomplished by Christ alone. Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through faith, but even that faith is given to us as a gift from God. And it is done so that we might not boast before God.

Do you believe, like Mike555, that the Gospel is only a potential work of salvation conditioned on the sinner, or that it is rather the very promise of God, conditioned upon Christ alone?

Is the Gospel promise a yes or no? The promises of God in Christ are the Yes! The promise of the Gospel was accomplished in Christ.

2Co 1:19 for the Son of God, Jesus Christ, among you through us having been preached--through me and Silvanus and Timotheus--did not become Yes and No, but in him it hath become Yes;
2Co 1:20 for as many as are promises of God, in him are the Yes, and in him the Amen, for glory to God through us;
 
Old 01-15-2010, 12:59 PM
 
20,335 posts, read 15,713,584 times
Reputation: 7482
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Maybe we are still talking.

I agree with some of what you are saying. It is my belief that Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament was none other than Jesus Christ of the New Testament, and that his coming to work out the atonement was well known to prophets of old long before it actually happened. (Animal sacrifice was a type of the future sacrifice of God's own Son.)

But keep in mind that the Old Testament is a record of the Jews and their interaction with God and the laws from Him that they knew in their time. Even today almost all of those same Jews do not accept Jesus Christ as other than a prophet if that, and not their Messiah Savior. So, under your extremely harsh and in my opinion unjust doctrine, most of the Old Testament Jews (God's favored people) and probably all other of God's children who ever lived on this planet are now burning in hell not even knowing why or how they deserved such a fate. I do not believe that to be true, I believe Heavenly Father to be perfectly loving and perfectly JUST!


But please, don't continue to go on and on about being "saved" by law or works! I think most if not all knowledgeable Christians believe firmly that they are saved by Jesus Christ, not by works. But they also believe that they need to keep God's commandments and that they will be judged by how well they did that and assigned a place in eternity according to that judgment.

As I see it, this whole argument could possibly be settled by reaching an acceptable definition of the concept of "salvation" and of what life will be like in "heaven." (And ceasing to aggressively push the notion that Satan's plan will be more successful than God's and almost all of God's children will end up in hell simply because they didn't know of or didn't bow down to the highly arbitrary and for some repugnant OSAS package of beliefs.
Only those who have believed in Christ for salvation are God's children. Everyone who is born, is born physically alive but spiritually dead. That means no relationship with God. All who are born, are born already destined for the lake of fire. Only faith in Christ provides salvation from that fate.

Satan's plan is never more successfull than God's plan. It is the very Holiness of God that requires eternal condemnation for those who reject His offer of salvation. Only by being imputed with His righteousness through faith alone in Christ alone based on the work of Christ on the Cross, and therefore being delared justified by God, can a human being have an eternal relationship with God. Rejection of God's offer of salvation means that you remain under eternal condemnation and will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Human righteousness cannot have a relationship with God's absolute righteousness. Only by coming to God through faith in Christ can God impute His righteousness to a member of the human race.


God has made Himself known to all through His creation. Psalms 19:1-6; Romans 1:18-21.

God has revealed Himself through conscience. An internal sense of right and wrong. Romans 2:14:15

In Old Testament times God revealed Himself through;

1) Dreams (Gen.20:3; 28:10-15; 31:11-13,24, Daniel 2)

2) Visons (Ezekiel 1)

3) Audible Voice (1 Samuel 3)

4) Theophanies. A theophany is a pre-incarnation appearance of Jesus Christ. (Gen.16:7-14; Exodus 3:2-6; 2 Sam. 24:16; Zech. 1:12)

5) Angels (Dan.9:20-21)

6) The Prophets (There were many. Take your pick.)

7) Miracles and supernatural events. (Exodus 7-11)

8) Jesus Christ.

9) The Bible.

God has revealed Himself to man in many ways. God made it known from the time of Adam's fall that a Savior would come into the world. At any point in history, if any member of the human race had a desire to know the God that had revealed Himself in all those many ways, then they would be given the Gospel in one way or another. There is no such thing as a person who never heard the Gospel if he wanted to know God. To those who never had an interest in knowing God, God had no responsibliity to get the Gospel to them. As the human population increased in ancient times and man spread out throughout the world, the knowledge of God went with them. But many peoples and groups desired to worship not the true God, but idols, and demons. And knowledge of the true God was forgotten. These are the heathen.

God has always, ALWAYS revealed Himself to those who want to know Him. It is invalid to assume that there have ever been people who never had the opportunity to come to know Christ. Those who don't know Him never wanted to know Him. And they by the justice of God are now in Hades awaiting their final sentencing to the eternal lake of fire.

As can be seen on this forum, there are many people who think they must live in a certain way and avoid sinning in order to not lose their salvation. These people are legalistic and at odds with God's policy of grace. And if they added works to their faith as a condition for salvation, then they were never even saved in the first place.

How a believer lives his life after salvation has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on his eternal security. Only on whether or not he earns eternal rewards. Salvation is not earned. Eternal rewards are earned. (1 Cor. 3:12-15, 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12).
 
Old 01-15-2010, 01:00 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,318,676 times
Reputation: 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
There you go.
Friends at last. I knew we would be...LOL
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