U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 01-15-2010, 12:17 PM
 
20,290 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
True, but what about before the temple and the ritual sacrifices were established?
Immediately after Adam fell, God revealed that a Savior would come into the world. Gen. 3:15. Thoughout all of human history preceding the time of Christ's incarnation, it had been revealed that the Messiah would come. And it was the trust placed in Him as He was known to them, that secured their salvation.

Abel's animal sacrifice reflected his faith in the work of the coming Messiah. Cains vegetable offering reflected his dependance on his own efforts and his rejection of God's grace.

 
Old 01-15-2010, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Only those who have believed in Christ for salvation are God's children. Everyone who is born, is born physically alive but spiritually dead. That means no relationship with God. All who are born, are born already destined for the lake of fire. Only faith in Christ provides salvation from that fate.

Satan's plan is never more successfull than God's plan. It is the very Holiness of God that requires eternal condemnation for those who reject His offer of salvation. Only by being imputed with His righteousness through faith alone in Christ alone based on the work of Christ on the Cross, and therefore being delared justified by God, can a human being have an eternal relationship with God. Rejection of God's offer of salvation means that you remain under eternal condemnation and will spend eternity in the lake of fire. Human righteousness cannot have a relationship with God's absolute righteousness. Only by coming to God through faith in Christ can God impute His righteousness to a member of the human race.
So Satan wants to drag God's children down to hell and God doesn't really want him to do that but don't blame Satan blame GOD for people going to hell because it's HIS plan that they do? And that's why Satan's plan is not more successful than God's even though he (Satan) gets more fruit out of it than God does??

I understand that those are things you believe to be true based on your and your mentors' arbitrary interpretations of certain verses in the bible and denial of others. But with respect for your right to believe whatever you will, I will always consider your teachings in your OSAS threads to be dark, dangerous, and even potentially insulting to God the Father whom I believe to be perfectly just towards all of His children. It is my belief that God will never inflict eternal punishment on someone who has not chosen to live a life of wickedness and rebellion.

In my opinion the so-called "legalism" that you accuse others of demonstrating is exactly what you do. Like the Pharisees and lawyers Jesus exposed, you take scripture and spin it into a complex doctrine that on the surface may appear to be no more harmful than any of the many others being promoted by arm of flesh scholars and their devotees. But when you combine that with your dark declaration that anyone who does not believe your doctrine is sent to hell forever as punishment for not believing as you do, then that in my opinion is waay over the line and unrepresentative of the way Christ taught his followers to live.

But, like most of the many other critical problems that come with your package and are readily apparent to those who can stand far enough away from it to see the whole thing and what's at its foundation, you've rationalized that away by teaching that those who aren't just like you are not even God's children! So, hey, why not throw them all away forever, they never even had a soul...
 
Old 01-15-2010, 01:32 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,115,922 times
Reputation: 807
Hmmm....I see post #307 is being completely ignored....I wonder why?
 
Old 01-15-2010, 02:11 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,577,932 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
So Satan wants to drag God's children down to hell and God doesn't really want him to do that but don't blame Satan blame GOD for people going to hell because it's HIS plan that they do? And that's why Satan's plan is not more successful than God's even though he (Satan) gets more fruit out of it than God does??

I understand that those are things you believe to be true based on your and your mentors' arbitrary interpretations of certain verses in the bible and denial of others. But with respect for your right to believe whatever you will, I will always consider your teachings in your OSAS threads to be dark, dangerous, and even potentially insulting to God the Father whom I believe to be perfectly just towards all of His children. It is my belief that God will never inflict eternal punishment on someone who has not chosen to live a life of wickedness and rebellion.

In my opinion the so-called "legalism" that you accuse others of demonstrating is exactly what you do. Like the Pharisees and lawyers Jesus exposed, you take scripture and spin it into a complex doctrine that on the surface may appear to be no more harmful than any of the many others being promoted by arm of flesh scholars and their devotees. But when you combine that with your dark declaration that anyone who does not believe your doctrine is sent to hell forever as punishment for not believing as you do, then that in my opinion is waay over the line and unrepresentative of the way Christ taught his followers to live.

But, like most of the many other critical problems that come with your package and are readily apparent to those who can stand far enough away from it to see the whole thing and what's at its foundation, you've rationalized that away by teaching that those who aren't just like you are not even God's children! So, hey, why not throw them all away forever, they never even had a soul...
I need to step in here. Where did you get these ideas or interpretations? I don't see Mike saying that Satan's plan is more effective than God's.

Brother I have been reading your posts and you need to pray that God would take the blinders off of your eyes and the plugs out of your ears. You also need to lay down anything that you have been taught and give your believe system to God asking Him for Truth. Search out scripture from the Bible and not another book my dear friend. Don't listen to man right now but listen to God....

Lord Jesus I just ask that you would give Justamere eyes to see and ears to hear what your Spirit is saying. I just bind any false teachings or lies from his heart and ask that the Spirit of confusion be removed from his presence. May he come to you in a Spirit of humility and love, bowing down to your Name. The Name that is above all names on Heaven and on Earth. Lord Jesus in the Authority that is yours I pray for Justamere, that He would have peace and that the Truth would set him free and I pray that he would have a crystal clear Faith in what he believes. In Jesus's Name I pray....

May you find His peace dear one...
 
Old 01-15-2010, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Default The dead are judged according to their works...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Hmmm....I see post #307 is being completely ignored....I wonder why?
It doesn't really matter how much scripture you can suggest to them, some people are so hung up on dogma resulting from emphasis on certain scriptures, denial of others, and lawyer-like out of context as a whole interpretions of scripture that they will always spin it into something that in their own view actually supports their favored package of beliefs instead of refutes it. That's probably human nature, but when it's accompanied by aggressive marketing and the deliberate creation of FEAR of eternal damnation to all who do not believe the dogma it is not helpful in my opinion to the cause of Christ and Christianity.

Here are a few examples, following along with your quotes from the book of Revelation that to me very clearly are critically problematic to OSAS, but will probably be spun otherwise:


Those enter God's city who keep his commandments.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22: 14

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/22/14#14



Both faith and works are required to be a "saint".

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14: 12-13
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/14/12-13#12



Here is an example of what someone can do to lose their salvation even after they have supposedly irrevocably obtained it by some solitary act of faith as defined by the OSAS doctrine. (No exception is mentioned for OSASers.)

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14: 9-11

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/14/9-11#9



"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20: 12

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/20/12#12
 
Old 01-15-2010, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,451 posts, read 31,853,456 times
Reputation: 9399
Legalism and Modern Evangelicalism (Paul Washer)




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBiVN...E720644CF2FCA8
 
Old 01-15-2010, 02:29 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
...Brother I have been reading your posts and you need to pray that God would take the blinders off of your eyes and the plugs out of your ears. You also need to lay down anything that you have been taught and give your believe system to God asking Him for Truth. Search out scripture from the Bible and not another book my dear friend. Don't listen to man right now but listen to God....

Lord Jesus I just ask that you would give Justamere eyes to see and ears to hear what your Spirit is saying. I just bind any false teachings or lies from his heart and ask that the Spirit of confusion be removed from his presence. May he come to you in a Spirit of humility and love, bowing down to your Name. The Name that is above all names on Heaven and on Earth. Lord Jesus in the Authority that is yours I pray for Justamere, that He would have peace and that the Truth would set him free and I pray that he would have a crystal clear Faith in what he believes. In Jesus's Name I pray....

May you find His peace dear one...
Well done Raelyn, you're a sweet and sincere soul, you pray like a preacher who has been to college and trained for the ministry!

I really appreciate your desire to help me find my way. But don't forget to pray for brother Mike too, he could probably use some help as well...
 
Old 01-15-2010, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,577,932 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
It doesn't really matter how much scripture you can suggest to them, some people are so hung up on dogma resulting from emphasis on certain scriptures, denial of others, and lawyer-like out of context as a whole interpretions of scripture that they will always spin it into something that in their own view actually supports their favored package of beliefs instead of refutes it. That's probably human nature, but when it's accompanied by aggressive marketing and the deliberate creation of FEAR of eternal damnation to all who do not believe the dogma it is not helpful in my opinion to the cause of Christ and Christianity.

Here are a few examples, following along with your quotes from the book of Revelation that to me very clearly are critically problematic to OSAS, but will probably be spun otherwise:


Those enter God's city who keep his commandments.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22: 14

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/22/14#14



Both faith and works are required to be a "saint".

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14: 12-13
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/14/12-13#12



Here is an example of what someone can do to lose their salvation even after they have supposedly irrevocably obtained it by some solitary act of faith as defined by the OSAS doctrine. (No exception is mentioned for OSASers.)

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14: 9-11

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/14/9-11#9



"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20: 12

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/20/12#12
Just a thought and a question Justamere? If you don't like what is said on these forums or in this particular thread why do you visit it? You could go to another forum or thread you know Please do not take that as an insult, I am only asking to understand your intention.

If I didn't want to eat or smell steak I certainly would not enter the Texas Roadhouse Steakhouse.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 02:46 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,115,922 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
It doesn't really matter how much scripture you can suggest to them, some people are so hung up on dogma resulting from emphasis on certain scriptures, denial of others, and lawyer-like out of context as a whole interpretions of scripture that they will always spin it into something that in their own view actually supports their favored package of beliefs instead of refutes it. That's probably human nature, but when it's accompanied by aggressive marketing and the deliberate creation of FEAR of eternal damnation to all who do not believe the dogma it is not helpful in my opinion to the cause of Christ and Christianity.

Here are a few examples, following along with your quotes from the book of Revelation that to me very clearly are critically problematic to OSAS, but will probably be spun otherwise:


Those enter God's city who keep his commandments.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city." Revelation 22: 14

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/22/14#14



Both faith and works are required to be a "saint".

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14: 12-13
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/14/12-13#12



Here is an example of what someone can do to lose their salvation even after they have supposedly irrevocably obtained it by some solitary act of faith as defined by the OSAS doctrine. (No exception is mentioned for OSASers.)

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." Revelation 14: 9-11

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/14/9-11#9



"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20: 12

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/20/12#12
I'm with you brother....I've seen the way they spin every one of Jesus' parables which clearly talk about works being the deciding factor, for this is what we are judged on in the end....but they have their own spin for every one of them. Jesus is pretty clear, faith alone will not save you....end of story. Repentance, turning completely from sin and works of obedience are a requirement to see the Kingdom...not an option like so many try to spin because Jesus tells us differently.

To be honest....I just don't get why they are so against being obedient to God. I love being obedient to God because I know that it pleases Him and I want to please the one that put breath in my body and gave me life. When you claim you love someone....don't you try to please them?
 
Old 01-15-2010, 02:49 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,115,922 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Legalism and Modern Evangelicalism (Paul Washer)




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBiVN...E720644CF2FCA8
He understands that law and grace go hand in hand.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top