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Old 01-15-2010, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,712 posts, read 32,154,825 times
Reputation: 9463

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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works." Revelation 20: 12

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/20/12#12
And it continues 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, if the believers are rewarded in heaven according to their works, and the ones whose name is not found in the book of life (unbelievers) are cast to hell, then doesn't that mean that ALL saved souls go to heaven, only the rewards vary depending on their works. It doesn't say anything about people who had been saved, but have no works. If your name is in the Book, then you're in. Simple.

Paul Washer put it very well in his sermon when he said it doesn't matter what you do, what matters is what you are. Those who are most Christ like are the most blessed:

Look at the qualities Christ wants to see in people. Not a word about 'works'.

Matthew 5:3-12

3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.

10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

 
Old 01-15-2010, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,712 posts, read 32,154,825 times
Reputation: 9463
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
He understands that law and grace go hand in hand.
He said it doesn't matter what you do, but what you are.

He wants you to be like this:

3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,133,634 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
And it continues 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

So, if the believers are rewarded in heaven according to their works, and the ones whose name is not found in the book of life (unbelievers) are cast to hell, then doesn't that mean that ALL saved souls go to heaven, only the rewards vary depending on their works. It doesn't say anything about people who had been saved, but have no works. If your name is in the Book, then you're in. Simple.

Paul Washer put it very well in his sermon when he said it doesn't matter what you do, what matters is what you are. Those who are most Christ like are the most blessed:

Look at the qualities Christ wants to see in people. Not a word about 'works'.

Matthew 5:3-12

3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called sons of God.

10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
And doesn't one become Christlike by repenting, turning from your sin, and living in obedience to Gods commands? Obedience if fruit...not works.

Jesus gave us an example to follow....all we have to do is follow it.

Pastor Washer doesn't advocate doing nothing....Go listen to his sermon on Examining Yourself. He tends not to use the word works because so many put such a bad connotation on that word....but Jesus is very clear in everyone of his parables....works are required.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 04:04 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,712 posts, read 32,154,825 times
Reputation: 9463
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
And doesn't one become Christlike by repenting, turning from your sin, and living in obedience to Gods commands? Obedience if fruit...not works.

Jesus gave us an example to follow....all we have to do is follow it.

Pastor Washer doesn't advocate doing nothing....Go listen to his sermon on Examining Yourself.
No, I totally agree with that, and I was not trying to make a point that Christians should not do anything.


Matthew continues:

13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.


So, we need to maintain top-spirits, or we lose saltiness and are thrown away like old furniture, much like the branches which are cut off and burned in the fire.

John's 'branches' and Matthew's 'salt' are the same thing: it means Christians who lose the 'it', and stop producing fruit.

But it still doesn't answer the question whether or not one can lose salvation. What does it mean when you are burned, or thrown away and trampeled upon?

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 01-15-2010 at 04:13 PM..
 
Old 01-15-2010, 04:05 PM
 
20,360 posts, read 15,743,543 times
Reputation: 7524
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
So Satan wants to drag God's children down to hell and God doesn't really want him to do that but don't blame Satan blame GOD for people going to hell because it's HIS plan that they do? And that's why Satan's plan is not more successful than God's even though he (Satan) gets more fruit out of it than God does??
God is not to blame for anything. God would have been perfectly justified in sending every last one of us to the lake of fire. But that is not His nature. He has provided the one means available to Him to provide salvation for the human race in a way that would not compromise His character. Whosoever will avail themselves of God's offer has salvation. Those who reject God's offer remain under condemnation.

Quote:
I understand that those are things you believe to be true based on your and your mentors' arbitrary interpretations of certain verses in the bible and denial of others. But with respect for your right to believe whatever you will, I will always consider your teachings in your OSAS threads to be dark, dangerous, and even potentially insulting to God the Father whom I believe to be perfectly just towards all of His children. It is my belief that God will never inflict eternal punishment on someone who has not chosen to live a life of wickedness and rebellion.
You understand nothing. It is you and those like you who deny the Scriptures and what they say. Your beliefs are wrong and contradict the word of God. You deny the Scriptures that state plainly that God rejects human righteousness. You ignore the Scriptures that state in no uncertain terms that God does consign to the lake of fire those who don't accept His offer of salvation.

Quote:
In my opinion the so-called "legalism" that you accuse others of demonstrating is exactly what you do. Like the Pharisees and lawyers Jesus exposed, you take scripture and spin it into a complex doctrine that on the surface may appear to be no more harmful than any of the many others being promoted by arm of flesh scholars and their devotees. But when you combine that with your dark declaration that anyone who does not believe your doctrine is sent to hell forever as punishment for not believing as you do, then that in my opinion is waay over the line and unrepresentative of the way Christ taught his followers to live.
The word of God teaches that God is a God of grace. How is it then that you equate the teaching of grace and warning against legalism as being legalism?

How is it that you reject the clear teaching of Scripture which warns of eternal separation from God in the lake of fire?

Quote:
But, like most of the many other critical problems that come with your package and are readily apparent to those who can stand far enough away from it to see the whole thing and what's at its foundation, you've rationalized that away by teaching that those who aren't just like you are not even God's children! So, hey, why not throw them all away forever, they never even had a soul...
God treats man in grace. But when the grace of God is rejected, then the justice of God must come into play. The rejection of God's offer of salvation through faith alone in Christ alone based on the work of Christ on the Cross, demands that the justice of God must judge that rejection and send those who have chosen to reject Him into eternal separation from Him.

Those who hate the truth are offended by the truth. But truth is eternal. God is eternal and His Holiness is eternal. And His word stands forever. The choice is eternal salvation or eternal condemnation.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 04:17 PM
 
20,360 posts, read 15,743,543 times
Reputation: 7524
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Rev 14:12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

Reve 22:14 Blessed are they that do His commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Have you ever seen these verses? And how do you or anyone who believes in the "faith alone gospel" reconcile it especially when it says....The saints are those who keep Gods commandments and faith in Jesus....so one can't be excluded from the other nor can one be replaced for the other.....you have to have both. Keeping Gods commandments is more than just believing as is clearly evidenced from above.

I can't wait to see the spin ya'll put on these.
How many times now have I said that SALVATION is by faith alone. The spiritual life of the believer AFTER salvation is something else. The spiritual life of the believer after salvation determines whether he has any eternal rewards and decorations. His spiritual life after salvation has no bearing on maintaining his salvation.

Eternal salvation is not your spiritual life.

Your spiritual life is not your eternal salvation.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,587,929 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
How many times now have I said that SALVATION is by faith alone. The spiritual life of the believer AFTER salvation is something else. The spiritual life of the believer after salvation determines whether he has any eternal rewards and decorations. His spiritual life after salvation has no bearing on maintaining his salvation.

Eternal salvation is not your spiritual life.

Your spiritual life is not your eternal salvation.
It doesn't matter how many times they hear you say it for some reason the post always goes beyond the point of Salvation or the result of it. I just don't understand why this is so hard for them to understand.

Don't worry Mike I get what you are saying and we are on the same page.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 05:21 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,133,634 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, I totally agree with that, and I was not trying to make a point that Christians should not do anything.


Matthew continues:

13"You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled by men.


So, we need to maintain top-spirits, or we lose saltiness and are thrown away like old furniture, much like the branches which are cut off and burned in the fire.

John's 'branches' and Matthew's 'salt' are the same thing: it means Christians who lose the 'it', and stop producing fruit.

But it still doesn't answer the question whether or not one can lose salvation. What does it mean when you are burned, or thrown away and trampeled upon?
Finn....if you are a branch who is in the vine and you are cut off and thrown away outside to be burned....does that suggest that one is still saved? Of course not....and that was Jesus point. We have to keep following the commandments to keep abiding in him. Jesus is crystal clear about this....he told his apostles....if they didn't abide they would be lost.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 05:25 PM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,133,634 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
How many times now have I said that SALVATION is by faith alone. The spiritual life of the believer AFTER salvation is something else. The spiritual life of the believer after salvation determines whether he has any eternal rewards and decorations. His spiritual life after salvation has no bearing on maintaining his salvation.

Eternal salvation is not your spiritual life.

Your spiritual life is not your eternal salvation.
You can say that till the cows come home...but it doesn't make it any less false. Jesus was very clear how one obtains and maintains their salvation in and through him.....if you are just sitting back on your rear depending on faith alone to save you.....My little sheep paw will be waving to you and all the other little goats as he says....I NEVER KNEW YOU!!!
 
Old 01-15-2010, 05:28 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,960,230 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
Just a thought and a question Justamere? If you don't like what is said on these forums or in this particular thread why do you visit it? You could go to another forum or thread you know Please do not take that as an insult, I am only asking to understand your intention.

If I didn't want to eat or smell steak I certainly would not enter the Texas Roadhouse Steakhouse.
Unless of course you wanted to converse with your friends and you knew they were there in that steakhouse.
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