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Old 01-16-2010, 09:19 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,957,970 times
Reputation: 221

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

1. Salvation by faith alone is taught by the Bible. It is not something that was invented by the church. Many of the church leaders listed above, such as Origen and Clement of Alexandria were heretics who taught false doctrine.

2. What does the Word of God itself say about the matter?

Eph. 2:8-9 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9) NOT of works, that no one should boast.' Just as you are not saved by works as Eph. 2:8-9 states, you do not maintain your salvation by works.
As I see it, with respect for your right to write as you will as long as it's respectfully, you continue to go and on preaching to the choir and cannot ever seem to grasp the fact that probably every knowledgeable Christian already accepts that it was Jesus Christ's atonement that made it POSSIBLE for all of God's children to be saved from their sins. Trying to push that point to the already converted seems to be about 90% of what promoters of OSAS do.

Then, in my view, you blindly deny the huge amount of scripture that demonstrates clearly that we are required to keep God's commandments as best we can and repent swiftly when we fall. We are told that we will be judged by how well we did that, and assigned a place in eternity according to that judgment. I think most Christians do not believe (as you often wrongfully accuse them of believing) that they are saved by works, they know they are not, we're all "unprofitable servants", we cannot save ourselves! But they also know that doing good to and loving others, and repentance are vital parts of the process of salvation as it is outlined in scripture.

And you continue to aggressively lash out with the dire threat that if people do not accept the Marcionite belief that you put your trust in, then their loving and perfectly just Heavenly Father in your opinion will throw them into hell to burn there forever.


1. It's very easy in hind sight to claim that such and such early church "father" was a heretic. Just pick the stream of doctrine of your choice and then if such a person didn't conform to your favorite package, hurl the "heretic" word! That might make you feel better, but it does not remove the fact that such a person was far closer in time to the pure doctrines taught by Christ and his apostles than you are and thus his teachings are just as valid as are those of his contemporaries however the politics and popularity eventually settled out over the ages.

2. That "Word of God" that you subscribe to is simply the way YOU and your fellow OSAS travelers INTERPRET various verses of the bible. Your quotes from Ephesians point out what probably every Christian knows and accepts - that salvation is made possible by Jesus Christ.


"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14: 12-13

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/14/12-13#12



I know, you are capable of spinning that and any other quote from the scriptures to make it appear (at least in your own mind) to support your belief, that comes with human nature. And that's why there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations, each teaching their version of "the word of God." To me, that verse plainly states that both faith in Jesus and keeping God's commandments are part of the process leading to salvation.

And we go round, and we go round, and we go round.....


Is it possible that God might expect us in this the dispensation of the fulness of times to ask HIM what He requires of us for our own individual salvation? Especially since the stakes are so high and confusion reigns among those who buy into the dictates of arm of flesh scholars that God is no longer allowed to interact with His children because the books they (scholars) put into the bible are everything we're ever going to get from Him? (And of course, only scholars/lawyers/Pharisees can accurately interpret what's written in those books!)


"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/james/1/5#5


If you told me that you have fasted and prayed sincerely for maybe many days then found out from God Himself by His Holy Spirit that the Marcionite doctrine was what you should follow, then I'd accept that for YOU that is God's will!

Last edited by justamere10; 01-16-2010 at 09:32 AM..

 
Old 01-16-2010, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Miami, FL
58,619 posts, read 32,063,428 times
Reputation: 9437
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
I have shown what Jesus was referring to when He was talking about the vine and the branches at the following link.

www.city-data.com/forum/christianity/867735-story-vine-salvation-first-inheritance.html POST #7
No, post #1. There is a fairly persuasive argument to support one POV. According to this, the fire is a test which is used to measure rewards in heaven. But that differes from what you argue in post #7

12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Fire:

1. Eternal fire for unsaved only (Mike, Raelyn)
2. Not eternal, but a test to measure a believer's rewards (Timothy)
3. Eternal fire for unsaved and for those who lost salvation (Cristy)



2 Tim 2:23-24 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful

LOL
 
Old 01-16-2010, 09:44 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,957,970 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
Sure would be nice to have living prophets, but we don't. And no, the "prophets" of SLC don't count.
That's your opinion. Some 14,000,000 living people who actually know what today's authorized Apostles do and say believe differently, and rejoice that God has not abandoned His children as scholars say He has.

Most of their contemporaries did not believe that Peter, James, and John were prophets either...
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:25 AM
 
20,335 posts, read 15,713,584 times
Reputation: 7482
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Mike...do you think you have the market on Truth? God is supposed to guide us into all Truth...not you Mike. Share your opinion with others but don't treat the rest of us like we don't know what we are talking about just because we don't agree with you....it's just common courtesy.
God is truth. I'm giving you accurate information concerning Biblical principles that have to do with grace.

As for you knowing what you are talking about, you have made it known that you don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, you have at least implied that you think it was possible that Christ might have sinned before beginning His ministry, and have you not denied the virgin birth of Christ? You refuse to believe the Apostle Paul and have accused Jesus of being a legalist and have said that you are proud to be called a legalist. And do you not deny a future physical resurrection of believers? There are other things that you have posted that show that you do Not know what you are talking about. You believe these things which I have just listed and you think that the Holy Spirit led you to them? It is not God that guided you to these heresies. It is Satan who has deceived you.

I am presenting the Biblical truth concerning grace, concerning salvation through faith alone in Christ alone based on His work on the Cross, and concerning eternal security, and therefore, let those who are offended by the truth continue to be offended. Those who care about the truth aren't offended by the truth.

What I am posting is all basic Bible doctrine. None of it is from my own personal opinion. These are things that were taught by great men of doctrine, such as Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, and John F. Walvoord who suceeded him. Robert B. Thieme who was one of the greatest pastors of the twentieth century, he was pastor of Berachah Church in Houston, TX. for over 50 years. And there are other great men of doctrine who teach these Biblical principles. The doctrines I'm presenting on this forum are for those who have sense enough to accept them. And they are doctrines that are clearly shown in the Bible.

If you are offended by what I post, what is that to me?!!!
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:55 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,128,346 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
God is truth. I'm giving you accurate information concerning Biblical principles that have to do with grace.

As for you knowing what you are talking about, you have made it known that you don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, you have at least implied that you think it was possible that Christ might have sinned before beginning His ministry, and have you not denied the virgin birth of Christ? You refuse to believe the Apostle Paul and have accused Jesus of being a legalist and have said that you are proud to be called a legalist. And do you not deny a future physical resurrection of believers? There are other things that you have posted that show that you do Not know what you are talking about. You believe these things which I have just listed and you think that the Holy Spirit led you to them? It is not God that guided you to these heresies. It is Satan who has deceived you.

I am presenting the Biblical truth concerning grace, concerning salvation through faith alone in Christ alone based on His work on the Cross, and concerning eternal security, and therefore, let those who are offended by the truth continue to be offended. Those who care about the truth aren't offended by the truth.

What I am posting is all basic Bible doctrine. None of it is from my own personal opinion. These are things that were taught by great men of doctrine, such as Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer who founded Dallas Theological Seminary, and John F. Walvoord who suceeded him. Robert B. Thieme who was one of the greatest pastors of the twentieth century, he was pastor of Berachah Church in Houston, TX. for over 50 years. And there are other great men of doctrine who teach these Biblical principles. The doctrines I'm presenting on this forum are for those who have sense enough to accept them. And they are doctrines that are clearly shown in the Bible.

If you are offended by what I post, what is that to me?!!!
No Mike....you're giving the opinion and interpretation of the teachers you subscribe to and their opinions and interpretations are those of whomever they subscribe to...and the circle goes round and round. Jesus states, very clearly, what our responsibilities are without adding anything to the scripture, such as presuppositions, doctrine that isn't there, mans thoughts, spinning scriptures to say something they don't say....try just reading the clear and precise words of Jesus...they are really very easy to understand.

Obviously....if the doctrine you subscribed to was so clear, as you contend, then everyone would believe it. Seeing as that is not the case...it's obviously not as clear as you contend.

You don't offend me Mike....for you do not answer to me....but there is one you will answer to in the end so I would suggest you examine yourself, not only in the doctrine you try to ram down everyone's throats but also your heart towards other believers....for you are not showing the love of Christ that you should be and I'm not the first person here that is pointing this out to you.

Be Blessed,
Christy
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:58 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,840,973 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
That's your opinion. Some 14,000,000 living people who actually know what today's authorized Apostles do and say believe differently, and rejoice that God has not abandoned His children as scholars say He has. ...
Then some 14,000,000 are rejoicing for nothing as the Christian scriptures call them.... wicked, evil doers.

Job 8:20
Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:


God's command: "Be perfect"..... yet 14,000,000 rejoicing evil doers trying to become perfect by "doing all you can do" by trying to obey the law to become worthy.
It is you who "continues to go on preaching and cannot ever seem to grasp the fact that probably every knowledgeable Christian" is convinced "that you blindly deny the huge amount of scripture."

Proverbs 2:21
For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it

Proverbs 11:5
The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,472,067 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Then some 14,000,000 are rejoicing for nothing as the Christian scriptures call them.... wicked, evil doers.

Job 8:20
Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:


God's command: "Be perfect"..... yet 14,000,000 rejoicing evil doers trying to become perfect by "doing all you can do" by trying to obey the law to become worthy.

Proverbs 2:21
For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it

Proverbs 11:5
The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.


14,000,000 people all trying to become a god of their own planet, yet that's better than 38,000 (which their isn't)

It is you who "continues to go on preaching and cannot ever seem to grasp the fact that probably every knowledgeable Christian" is convinced "that you blindly deny the huge amount of scripture."
Perfection comes when one overcomes sin. It isn't a blanket that hides sin. It is a distinction of it's absence.
I agree with you on the try part.

Do or do not.... there is no try. (Master Yoda)

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 01-16-2010, 11:09 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,128,346 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post

12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
In this particular verse.....they are speaking to believers and giving them the foundations for living a Christlike life. This is in no way pertaining to unbelievers.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 11:10 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,840,973 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Perfection comes when one overcomes sin. It isn't a blanket that hides sin. It is a distinction of it's absence.
I agree with you on the try part.

Do or do not.... there is no try. (Master Yoda)

godspeed,

freedom

Christians have.......
"Perfection comes when one overcomes sin" and "It is a distinction of it's absence"

he's called .... Jesus (The only master)
 
Old 01-16-2010, 11:15 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,957,970 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
3. Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

4. Titus 3:5 says, 'He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.'

5. The books of Romans and Galatians are about salvation by grace and not by works.

6. Now, regarding sin, Jesus Christ paid for every single sin in the history of the human race. It is impossible to commit a sin for which Christ did not die. Since Christ paid the penalty for all sin, how then can anyone think that they can commit a sin that could cause them to lose their salvation?
3. Yes, I know, salvation is made possible by the grace of Jesus Christ who took upon himself the sins of all mankind. (But we still have to keep God's commandments and repent when we don't!) As I understand it, this entire mortal experience is meant to be a time to learn and be tested to see where we can best fit in to have peace with each other as brothers and sisters in the eternities, and to take up higher or lesser responsibilities in God's celestial family according to the choices we made on earth.

To put it crudely but frankly (because I think it would be helpful to expose what is being taught in this thread for what seems to be at its foundation when the pretty cover is stripped away) OSAS as aggressively taught by the op violates that purpose of living with the inference that God sort of throws the dice everytime a human being is born to decide if He's going to roast that baby and listen to his or her screams forever, or ok, for this one, not! In the op's opinion, as I understand it, it seems that there's really no reason for living than to do the momentary once in a lifetime "act of faith in Jesus" the op dictates, or else provide fuel to keep the devil from freezing. (I know that's nasty, but it's what I personally find lurking under the cloak of OSAS as aggressively with frequent threats taught by the op. It may be quite different and just a normal interdenominational discussion if the forcefed threats to everyone who does not believe the op's dogma were not always being pushed...)


4. Same as 3, I already know that it is only through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ that I can be saved. I don't need some highly arbitrary complex arm of flesh scholarly construct such as OSAS to 'explain' the process of "salvation" and what I should do to know God and Jesus Christ, demonstrate love and respect for them and all of God's children, and have a realistic hope for a better afterlife experience.


5. Maybe they are, salvation is made possible by the atonement of Jesus Christ and his consequent right to apply grace and mercy to balance the scales of justice, no argument. (But we still have to keep God's commandments and repent when we don't!)


6. That's right! Except that we do commit sin and we do need to repent and we will be judged according to how closer we came to being as righteous as God is (perfect) by our choices between good and evil thoughts and behavior. (Including how we judged and treated others.)


I apologize to those who may be a bit more tender hearted and thinner skinned than perhaps they should be when reading religion and politics discussion forums. It is my preference to be loving and kind and gentle, as the Savior taught we should be. But when faced with people who consistently judge and CONDEMN me and others to eternal damnation if we don't believe what they preach, then I feel that it becomes necessary to fight that fire with fire and do what I can to expose the dogma for what is most likely at its foundation. (However effective that may or may not be.) In the end I have, or do my best to have and to demonstrate love for God and for all of His children weak and erring and human as we all may be.
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