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Old 01-16-2010, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Vancouver, BC
823 posts, read 1,080,838 times
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[quote=justamere10;12471037]As I see it, with respect for your right to write as you will as long as it's respectfully, you continue to go and on preaching to the choir and cannot ever seem to grasp the fact that probably every knowledgeable Christian already accepts that it was Jesus Christ's atonement that made it POSSIBLE for all of God's children to be saved from their sins. Trying to push that point to the already converted seems to be about 90% of what promoters of OSAS do.

Then, in my view, you blindly deny the huge amount of scripture that demonstrates clearly that we are required to keep God's commandments as best we can and repent swiftly when we fall. We are told that we will be judged by how well we did that, and assigned a place in eternity according to that judgment. I think most Christians do not believe (as you often wrongfully accuse them of believing) that they are saved by works, they know they are not, we're all "unprofitable servants", we cannot save ourselves! But they also know that doing good to and loving others, and repentance are vital parts of the process of salvation as it is outlined in scripture.

And you continue to aggressively lash out with the dire threat that if people do not accept the Marcionite belief that you put your trust in, then their loving and perfectly just Heavenly Father in your opinion will throw them into hell to burn there forever.


"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14: 12-13

***

Very well said.

 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:26 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,115,922 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Perfection comes when one overcomes sin. It isn't a blanket that hides sin. It is a distinction of it's absence.
I agree with you on the try part.

Do or do not.... there is no try. (Master Yoda)

godspeed,

freedom
I absolutely agree with you 100%...and the more we try for it the closer we get. I absolutely believe Jesus when he told us to follow him into it because it is something we can accomplish in this life....we are to be perfect as the Father is perfect.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:28 AM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Then some 14,000,000 are rejoicing for nothing as the Christian scriptures call them.... wicked, evil doers.

Job 8:20
Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:

God's command: "Be perfect"..... yet 14,000,000 rejoicing evil doers trying to become perfect by "doing all you can do" by trying to obey the law to become worthy.

It is you who "continues to go on preaching and cannot ever seem to grasp the fact that probably every knowledgeable Christian" is convinced "that you blindly deny the huge amount of scripture."

Proverbs 2:21
For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it

Proverbs 11:5
The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Such warnings written by prophets and inspired men thousands of years before you and I were born apply just as logically and just as validly to YOU and to your beliefs as they do to mine.


Are you pretending that some people are BORN perfect and others are not?

Or are you perhaps pretending that people who do whatever it is that the op is dictating must be done once a lifetime or else hellfire, makes a person PERFECT immediately after that thing is done?

Or just what is it that you are implying by posting those particular quotes about perfect and perfection?

Last edited by justamere10; 01-16-2010 at 11:09 AM..
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:31 AM
 
20,291 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
As I see it, with respect for your right to write as you will as long as it's respectfully, you continue to go and on preaching to the choir and cannot ever seem to grasp the fact that probably every knowledgeable Christian already accepts that it was Jesus Christ's atonement that made it POSSIBLE for all of God's children to be saved from their sins. Trying to push that point to the already converted seems to be about 90% of what promoters of OSAS do.
If you believe that you must avoid sinning and do works in order to maintain salvation then you understand NOTHING about the grace of God. You just can't get it through your head that the spiritual life of the believer is a separate matter than salvation.

As most mormons believe that they must follow ordinances in order to be saved and believe that grace is 'saved after all we can do', then most mormons aren't saved at all. They will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

And most Christians aren't knowledgeable. And many who profess to be Christians aren't Christian at all.

Quote:

Then, in my view, you blindly deny the huge amount of scripture that demonstrates clearly that we are required to keep God's commandments as best we can and repent swiftly when we fall. We are told that we will be judged by how well we did that, and assigned a place in eternity according to that judgment. I think most Christians do not believe (as you often wrongfully accuse them of believing) that they are saved by works, they know they are not, we're all "unprofitable servants", we cannot save ourselves! But they also know that doing good to and loving others, and repentance are vital parts of the process of salvation as it is outlined in scripture.

And you continue to aggressively lash out with the dire threat that if people do not accept the Marcionite belief that you put your trust in, then their loving and perfectly just Heavenly Father in your opinion will throw them into hell to burn there forever.
Again you foolishly deny the very scriptures that state that those who do not believe in Christ WILL spend eternity in the lake of fire. I just posted some of those scriptures a post or two or so ago.

If a person doesn't accept God's offer of salvation, then he is going to spend eternity in the lake of fire. It is that simple.

Quote:
1. It's very easy in hind sight to claim that such and such early church "father" was a heretic. Just pick the stream of doctrine of your choice and then if such a person didn't conform to your favorite package, hurl the "heretic" word! That might make you feel better, but it does not remove the fact that such a person was far closer in time to the pure doctrines taught by Christ and his apostles than you are and thus his teachings are just as valid as are those of his contemporaries however the politics and popularity eventually settled out over the ages.
Example: Origen taught universalism. HERESY.

Quote:
2. That "Word of God" that you subscribe to is simply the way YOU and your fellow OSAS travelers INTERPRET various verses of the bible. Your quotes from Ephesians point out what probably every Christian knows and accepts - that salvation is made possible by Jesus Christ.
The Eternal security of the believer rests upon the character, the integrity of God. There is no interpretation required. Again, I have already posted passages that make the fact of eternal security clear.

Quote:
"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, AND the faith of Jesus. And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them." Revelation 14: 12-13

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/rev/14/12-13#12



I know, you are capable of spinning that and any other quote from the scriptures to make it appear (at least in your own mind) to support your belief, that comes with human nature. And that's why there are tens of thousands of Christian denominations, each teaching their version of "the word of God." To me, that verse plainly states that both faith in Jesus and keeping God's commandments are part of the process leading to salvation.

And we go round, and we go round, and we go round.....

Quote:
Is it possible that God might expect us in this the dispensation of the fulness of times to ask HIM what He requires of us for our own individual salvation?
[\QUOTE]

No. It is stated clearly in the scriptures. The means of salvation is the same for all. Acts 16:31 'Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.
Especially since the stakes are so high and confusion reigns among those who buy into the dictates of arm of flesh scholars that God is no longer allowed to interact with His children because the books they (scholars) put into the bible are everything we're ever going to get from Him? (And of course, only scholars/lawyers/Pharisees can accurately interpret what's written in those books!)


"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." James 1: 5

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/james/1/5#5


If you told me that you have fasted and prayed sincerely for maybe many days then found out from God Himself by His Holy Spirit that the Marcionite doctrine was what you should follow, then I'd accept that for YOU that is God's will!
You keep bringing up the Marcionites. They didn't invent what is clearly taught in the Bible.

You have made it clear that you do not believe the Bible, and prefer to follow mormon cult teachings. As I have said, if you never simply believed in Christ for salvation without adding works or ordinances or anything else to faith as a condition for salvation, and if you think that you must follow certain commandments in order to maintain your salvation then you probably did add something to faith as a condition for salvation, then you are not even saved.

This is not opinion, it is not interpretation, it is the word of God.

You are offended by the truth because it contradicts the mormon belief that commandments must be followed to avoid losing your salvation. The scriptures state otherwise, and since I have already listed many of those passages, I will not list them again here. You simply reject them.

You have set yourself against the Word of God. You have set yourself against truth, and have instead imbraced Satanic lies that masquerade as truth.

2 Corinthians 11:13 'For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14) And no wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15) Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their deeds.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,115,922 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
If you believe that you must avoid sinning and do works in order to maintain salvation then you understand NOTHING about the grace of God. You just can't get it through your head that the spiritual life of the believer is a separate matter than salvation.
Is it my understanding that you think one can just skate through life continuing to sin, without repenting of that sin and turning from it....because Jesus covers it all up without one doing anything?
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:55 AM
 
20,291 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
No, post #1. There is a fairly persuasive argument to support one POV. According to this, the fire is a test which is used to measure rewards in heaven. But that differes from what you argue in post #7

12If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.

Fire:

1. Eternal fire for unsaved only (Mike, Raelyn)
2. Not eternal, but a test to measure a believer's rewards (Timothy)
3. Eternal fire for unsaved and for those who lost salvation (Cristy)



2 Tim 2:23-24 23Don't have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. 24And the Lord's servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful

LOL
At the judgment seat or bema seat of Christ, the believers WORKS that are judged by Christ to be 'wood, hay and stubble' are burned up in fire. (1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12)

The UNBELIEVER will be cast into the lake of fire forever.Revelation 20:15. Also called the furnace of fire in Matthew 13:49,50, eternal fire in Matthew 25:41, and eternal punishment in Matthew 25:46.

Hades which is different from the lake of fire is described in Luke 16:19-31.

The word 'fire' describes judgment.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,450,616 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Christians have.......
"Perfection comes when one overcomes sin" and "It is a distinction of it's absence"

he's called .... Jesus (The only master)
Not questioning the perfection of Christ.

Are you saying you are perfect because you believe in Christ? Regardless of how you live, or what choices you make?

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 01-16-2010, 11:12 AM
 
20,291 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
No Mike....you're giving the opinion and interpretation of the teachers you subscribe to and their opinions and interpretations are those of whomever they subscribe to...and the circle goes round and round. Jesus states, very clearly, what our responsibilities are without adding anything to the scripture, such as presuppositions, doctrine that isn't there, mans thoughts, spinning scriptures to say something they don't say....try just reading the clear and precise words of Jesus...they are really very easy to understand.

Obviously....if the doctrine you subscribed to was so clear, as you contend, then everyone would believe it. Seeing as that is not the case...it's obviously not as clear as you contend.

You don't offend me Mike....for you do not answer to me....but there is one you will answer to in the end so I would suggest you examine yourself, not only in the doctrine you try to ram down everyone's throats but also your heart towards other believers....for you are not showing the love of Christ that you should be and I'm not the first person here that is pointing this out to you.

Be Blessed,
Christy
What I have presented is the Word of God. The scriptures are explicit. The reason many people don't believe the truth is because they reject the truth. Presenting the truth is not 'ramming' it down anyones throat. Though those who can't stand to be confronted by the truth will make that accusation. Christ did not hesitate to put the pharisess in their place. The Apostle Paul was not hesitant to get tough with those who were distorting the truth. And I don't care who I offend with the truth.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 5,115,922 times
Reputation: 807
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What I have presented is the Word of God. The scriptures are explicit. The reason many people don't believe the truth is because they reject the truth. Presenting the truth is not 'ramming' it down anyones throat. Though those who can't stand to be confronted by the truth will make that accusation. Christ did not hesitate to put the pharisess in their place. The Apostle Paul was not hesitant to get tough with those who were distorting the truth. And I don't care who I offend with the truth.
I'm waiting with bated breath for your answer to my question Mike.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 11:24 AM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
Reputation: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post

those who do not abide in him, by continually keeping the commandments, will be cut off and thrown outside into the fire......It means you are LOST. Repenting, turning from sin..... until one repents of it and turns to him..... Always keep in mind that many are called but only a few are chosen.......to enter into the narrow gate.......we will not get through it walking the broad path.


I thought you were a Universalist?

Address this please?
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