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Old 01-16-2010, 02:15 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Such warnings written by prophets and inspired men thousands of years before you and I were born apply just as logically and just as validly to YOU and to your beliefs as they do to mine.
More than than. Its a demanded of all people. And yes, it does apply to me and YOU. The warnings written are not the words of a prophet, but the the words of Heavenly Father....ones which YOU pretend are optional or negotiable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Are you pretending that some people are BORN perfect and others are not?
To come to the conclusion that Heavenly Father is pretending proves how much you don't take Heavenly Father seriously, Jesus, or even your own BoM. It proves that you don't know Heavenly Father, his will or his command. The command has always to BE perfect or BE holy.....not BEcome. He doesn't help the evil doers Job 8:20 KJV

Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Or are you perhaps pretending that people who do whatever it is that the op is dictating must be done once a lifetime or else hellfire, makes a person PERFECT immediately after that thing is done?
That is why I made the point there are two different topics being discussed in this OP.
There is a big, big difference between "what makes a person PERFECT immediately" (and I emphasize immediatly) vs the possiblitity of one falling from their secure position or not. 2 Peter 3:17.


Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Or just what is it that you are implying by posting those particular quotes about perfect and perfection?
The fact that you are asking by what this is implying shows that you do not know the scriptures, understand the will or are a follower of Heavenly Father. How is it you can't read Heavenly Fathers very own words....words that were true 4000 years ago?

It is quite clear. I am PERFECT in Heavenly Father's view, and as Heavenly Father said (which YOU pretend don't apply) in Job 8:20 and Proverbs 2:21 , those who are not are evil doers and will not

 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:15 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Salvation is about what happens after death. Salvation means an eternal relationship with God. No salvation means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. I almost used one of those smacking himself on the forehead smilies.
As I understand it, God the Father is the literal Heavenly Parent who created/organized the immortal spirit that resides in my physical tabernacle until the latter's death. We thus come to mortal life with an eternal relationship with God, that of Father to son or daughter and vice versa.

If that is salvation then yes, I suppose, everyone is automatically "saved" whether or not they do that once in a lifetime one minute or so thing you say they must do or else burn forever.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:52 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The simple fact of the matter is that you reject the grace of God and prefer legalism. And therefore you are offended when confronted with grace. The mormon concept of grace is not what the Bible teaches. The mormons define grace as 'saved AFTER ALL THAT WE CAN DO'. That is NOT grace. Grace is all that God is free to do for man on the basis of the Cross. Grace excludes works.

Romans 11:6 'But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.'

And this is what you reject.

Neither do you understand this. Spiritual production is the result of spiritual growth. Not the means of producing spiritual growth.

And finally, by attacking eternal security, you attack the grace of God and show yourself to be estranged from the truth. You are hostile to the truth.
Again, it is you who misunderstand. I am not rejecting "the grace of God" as you accuse me of doing. (Unless of course we have widely varying definitions of the concept of "grace" which would make rejection of your definition possible.)

I repeat again and again that it is my belief that I will be saved only by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ who because of his atoning sacrifice has earned the right to step in as a third party and balance the scales of justice that would otherwise deliver me to stern Justice because I have sinned and cannot save myself. I don't know how to write it plainer than that!

What I do reject is your notion that all one has to do is take a moment sometime in one's life to affirm in one's mind that one has faith in Jesus Christ, and then keeping God's commandments is no longer necessary, one is automatically "saved" from that moment on.

You love to create imaginary enemies and thrust at them labels like "legalist" or "legalism" instead of taking the time to explain how you personally see things. You say "mormons define grace as..." (as if you would know) and then proceed to shoot down that strawman you created by declaring proudly: "That is not grace!" (As if you are the only one with enough intelligence or authority to define words and concepts for everyone else.)

I'm perfectly fine with Romans 11: 16. That to me is just another of many verses in scripture that tell me salvation is only in and through Jesus Christ. It does not negate all the other scripture that tells me I need to keep God's commandments as best I can and speedily repent and forsake the sin when I fall, which is part of the process of salvation.

You invent the phrase "spiritual production". Why not stick to plain English and what's written in the bible instead of throwing in denominational speak which others may not be familiar with?

You or your mentors or theirs or whoever also invent the phrase "eternal security", another label designed I suppose to in one's own mind exclude other sincere followers of Jesus Christ and pridefully elevate oneself and one's group to a higher more elite level?

I am not "hostile to the truth" Mike, I'm just not finding that you write much of it. (Though I know that you probably sincerely THINK and BELIEVE that you do.)
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:58 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
It is quite clear. I am PERFECT in Heavenly Father's view, and as Heavenly Father said (which YOU pretend don't apply) in Job 8:20 and Proverbs 2:21 , those who are not are evil doers and will not
Ok, but please explain to me why YOU are perfect and I am not, thanks.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 03:18 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
I think I understand it quite well, but you are certainly free to clearly explain what you mean each time you write the word "salvation." I've asked for that definition before.
Eternal salvation means that through faith alone in Christ alone based on His work on the Cross, a person is no longer under the condemnation under which he was born into the world.

It means that a person has been delivered out of the kingdom of Satan (Col. 1:13a), and into the kingdom of His beloved Son. (Col. 1:13b)

It means that God has imputed Both His eternal life and His perfect righteousness to the one who has believed in Christ.

It means that the believer will never see the lake of fire.

It means that the believer has an eternal relationship with God because God has given His perfect and absolute righteousness to the believer. And as a result, He declares that believer to be justified. No matter what a believer does after he is saved, so far as eternal SALVATION goes, God only sees HIS PERFECT RIGHTEOUSNESS when He looks at that believer and recognizes that that believer is justified on the basis of Who and what Christ is, and NOT on who and what the believer is.

Salvation means an eternal relationship with God and no appointment with the second death.

Quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you are preaching that if someone regardless of how sinful and unrepentant they are, takes a moment, maybe even less than a minute, and affirms in his or her mind that they have faith in Jesus Christ, then from that moment on, regardless of how sinful they continue to be or how wicked they become (including even murdering, raping, and/or verbally rejecting Christ), and regardless of how God choses to judge how well they lived their life, they will go to heaven after death.

Is that a correct understanding of what you are personally preaching?
No matter what a believer does after he is saved he cannot lose his eternal salvation no matter what he does. In a moment of time, when a person understands the issue of salvation and places their trust in Christ because of what He accomplished on the Cross, that person is saved forever. The issue is God's righteousness. Not man's rigteousness.

Now if a believer Does go around sinning all over the place and never naming those sins to God and never making decisions to grow up spiritually, then he is going to come under divine discipline in time, and will lose the eternal rewards that otherwise would have been his, but eternal salvation is not an issue.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 03:44 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
As I understand it, God the Father is the literal Heavenly Parent who created/organized the immortal spirit that resides in my physical tabernacle until the latter's death. We thus come to mortal life with an eternal relationship with God, that of Father to son or daughter and vice versa.

If that is salvation then yes, I suppose, everyone is automatically "saved" whether or not they do that once in a lifetime one minute or so thing you say they must do or else burn forever.
God the Father is not the literal father. Believers are children of God through adoption.

John 1:12 'But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

Eph. 1:5 'He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6) to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the beloved.

We are born spiritually dead and therefore have NO relationship with God. We are born already destined for eternal condemnation in the eternal lake of fire. Only accepting God's offer of salvation can change that.

Your statement above shows that you have no knowledge whatsoever of the issue. Your beliefs are not based on the word of God. Your beliefs are straight from the mouth of Satan. How many salvation verses state plainly that you must believe in Christ.

No one is automatically saved.

What does John 8:24 tell you? ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 03:47 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
OMGoodness....now I can see what it is you truly believe and it is contrary to EVERYTHING Jesus said. Thank you for clearing that up for me so that I don't waste any more of my time conversing with you.
Madam, I am delighted.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 03:58 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Isn't salvation really about life, life more abundant, life filled with joy, peace, and all the other fruit of the spirit?

You speak of salvation as the completion of one's faith. I've seen this so often in professed born-agains. They get to a point where they wish for death, thinking that Jesus will make them something that they either did not desire, or He didn't require.

Salvation is nothing more than being salvaged and providing a system of repentance through the Gift of God.

Repentance... true repentance is a right about face to living righteously.

Do you think Jesus doesn't want us to keep His word? no you don't think that.

Why focus so much on what has been done, and so little on what we are commanded, guided, and born to do?

godspeed,

freedom

This thread is focusing on eternal salvation. Actually it is about the means of becoming saved. By grace throught faith in Christ based on His work on the Cross and not by your works. The believers spiritual life is a different issue. God leaves the believer on this earth AFTER salvation so that he can grow up spiritually. But that is after having believed in Christ so that you are no longer under eternal condemnation.

Eternal salvation is the difference between spending eternity with God or spending eternity separated from God in the lake of fire.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 04:27 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
You quote the filthy rags verse a lot but as I see it you spin its meaning to fit into your construct. To me that short chapter is all about Isaiah expressing a longing for the Second Coming of Christ when Israel shall be freed from wickedness and the righteous among her shall at last be saved from sin.


1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down... (the next verses indicate that it is the Second Coming that Isaiah is referring to, not when Christ was born to Mary.)

5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.

6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses (keeping the laws of the OLD covenant) are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, (breaking the commandments) like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64: 1,5-6

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/64/1,5-6#1


Scholars and the intellect of almost any person can no doubt come up with many other ways to interpret verses from the 64th chapter of Isaiah. But the point is that the "word of God" that you proudly proclaim as the only truth, is not necessarily what the writer of the book of scripture you are referring to intended to convey to his target audience. Instead it is simply your own (and possibly your mentors' and theirs) INTERPRETATION of the words that are actually written in some translation in some version of some bible that you happen to be referring to.
And there you go. You deny that the Word of God is the only truth. All you can see is 'spin' and 'interpretation.' ANYTHING so that you can deny what the Bible states plainly.

Isa. 64:6 '...all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags.

Therefore,

Titus 3:5. 'He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

No man is justified before God on the basis of human righteousness. Only by the imputation of His divine righteousness to the one who has placed his faith in Christ, can God declare any member of the human race justified.

Mormons cannot become gods and rule over their own little world somewhere. So stop pinning your hopes for such a thing based on your attempts at righteousness. God the Father has always been God. He did not use to be a man on some planet who acquired godhood through righteous living as the mormons believe. And this IS what mormons believe, and that is why you are so offended by the truth. That is why the truth that God can't stand your human righteousness bothers you so much.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,450,616 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
This thread is focusing on eternal salvation. Actually it is about the means of becoming saved. By grace throught faith in Christ based on His work on the Cross and not by your works. The believers spiritual life is a different issue. God leaves the believer on this earth AFTER salvation so that he can grow up spiritually. But that is after having believed in Christ so that you are no longer under eternal condemnation.
No such thing as ETERNAL salvation... ask lucifer. If you go against God, you lose.
Quote:
Eternal salvation is the difference between spending eternity with God or spending eternity separated from God in the lake of fire.
NOt all saved are with God. His throne is not for the salvaged but for the overcomers. It's in Revelation.

If you are filthy here, you will be filthy after you die. The lowest degree of Salvation is one degree above Satan's realm, the rest are based on living Christ.

There are the least and the greatest in heaven. The overcomers are granted the throne of Christ.

You are teaching that sons and daughters of God, need do nothing but say a magic prayer and live just like everyone else... Party on Wayne, Party on Garth..... DUUUUUUUDE.

godspeed,

freedom
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