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Old 01-16-2010, 06:12 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
Ok, but please explain to me why YOU are perfect and I am not, thanks.
I will when you acknowledge the command of Heavenly Father is in the present tense.....BE perfect.
Then at sometime you'll need to acknowledge that LDS doesn't teach the command "be perfect" but rather become perfect (as in a progression). For your sake, I'll keep pressing the command of Heavenly Father. You will not recieve any help from Heavenly Father for you need to be perfect, not become it.


Deuteronomy 18:13
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.


KJV verses:
Genesis 6:9
Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

Genesis 17:1
the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

Deuteronomy 18:13
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Job 1:1
whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 8:20
Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:

Proverbs 2:21
For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

Matthew 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Last edited by twin.spin; 01-16-2010 at 06:26 PM..

 
Old 01-16-2010, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
And there you go. You deny that the Word of God is the only truth. All you can see is 'spin' and 'interpretation.' ANYTHING so that you can deny what the Bible states plainly.

Isa. 64:6 '...all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags.

Therefore, Titus 3:5. 'He saved us not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit.

No man is justified before God on the basis of human righteousness. Only by the imputation of His divine righteousness to the one who has placed his faith in Christ, can God declare any member of the human race justified.
I have learned that it is prudent to check your scriptural references carefully. Perhaps you use a different version of the bible than I do, or perhaps you are telling (little?) lies to deceive others into believing as you do, or perhaps you are just not careful when you quote erroneously and reach your own conclusions on your own interpretations??

Isaiah, in the King James version, after just speaking in verse 5 of the Lord meeting with those who work righteousness, does not say "righteous deeds" (are filthy rags) in verse 6 as you say he does. It reads instead:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64: 6

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/64/1,5-6#1


"Righteous deeds" (are filthy rags) had that actually been what Isaiah wrote, and in chapter context he hadn't spoken positively about good deeds in the other verses would have more clearly supported your dogma. But "righteousnesses" would have to include such things as those little once in a lifetime moments you speak of that in your mind absolve the person from the need to ever again keep God's commandments. (So those moments of faith too would have to be among the "filthy rags" you so abhor.)

Isaiah is speaking of how Israel's keeping of the Mosaic laws (and no doubt how pharisees and lawyers had interpreted and added to them) were of little real value and will fade away (when the Lord fulfills that lesser law.) Isaiah adds in the same verse that it is iniquity, the breaking of the law (not the keeping of it) that has taken them away from the Lord.


Again, in your quote from Titus you demonstrate your adeptness at taking a single verse from a chapter of scripture, ignoring contradictory verses even in the same chapter (as you did with Isaiah) and spinning that single verse out of the context of the chapter to most likely in your own mind show scriptural support for your dogma and try to persuade others to follow you.


Here's an example of verses you ignored in Paul's letter to Titus, which though brief is filled with references to doing good works:

Titus 3: 1,2,5,8,14

1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,


2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.


5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us... (We all agree that we are saved by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean any of us are absolved from the commandment to keep God's commandments and do good works.)


8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/titus/3/1-2,5,8,14#1


As I see it, the preponderance of evidence from the scriptures when read straight and in context clearly continues to refute your dangeous dogma.

Last edited by justamere10; 01-16-2010 at 06:37 PM..
 
Old 01-16-2010, 06:23 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
No such thing as ETERNAL salvation... ask lucifer. If you go against God, you lose.


NOt all saved are with God. His throne is not for the salvaged but for the overcomers. It's in Revelation.

If you are filthy here, you will be filthy after you die. The lowest degree of Salvation is one degree above Satan's realm, the rest are based on living Christ.

There are the least and the greatest in heaven. The overcomers are granted the throne of Christ.

You are teaching that sons and daughters of God, need do nothing but say a magic prayer and live just like everyone else... Party on Wayne, Party on Garth..... DUUUUUUUDE.

godspeed,

freedom
All who are saved, that is anyone who has placed his faith in Christ for salvation will be in the presence of God forever. But only those believers who advance spiritually will have rewards. The believer who becomes spiritually mature will rule with Christ among other rewards. The believer who fails to advance spiritually will still be in the presence of God but will have no rewards.

John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He Gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

This is eternal salvation.

Every believer has an eternal relationship with God. This is because of Positional sanctification.

Now, the rewards, privileges, decorations, and blessings that a believer has in eternity depend upon whether are not he advanced spiritually while alive on the earth after salvation. This has to do with Experiential sanctification.


If you had read my previous posts you would have known that I make the distinction between salvation (Positional Sanctification) which takes place in a moment of time through faith in Christ, and the believers spiritual life after salvation (Experiential Sanctification) which involves a lifetime of decisions to learn Bible doctrine and apply that doctrine to your life.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 06:37 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,822 posts, read 9,808,279 times
Reputation: 1300
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Not questioning the perfection of Christ.
I think that maybe debatable
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Are you saying you are perfect because you believe in Christ?
That has always been the standard....God demands to be perfect, not become it

Deuteronomy 18:13
Thou shalt be perfect with the LORD thy God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Regardless of how you live, or what choices you make?
depends on what angle you're coming from.

Proverbs 2:21
For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall remain in it.

Job 8:20
Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:
 
Old 01-16-2010, 07:36 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
I have learned that it is prudent to check your scriptural references carefully. Perhaps you use a different version of the bible than I do, or perhaps you are telling (little?) lies to deceive others into believing as you do, or perhaps you are just not careful when you quote erroneously and reach your own conclusions on your own interpretations??

Isaiah, in the King James version, after just speaking in verse 5 of the Lord meeting with those who work righteousness, does not say "righteous deeds" (are filthy rags) in verse 6 as you say he does. It reads instead:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64: 6

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/64/1,5-6#1


"Righteous deeds" (are filthy rags) had that actually been what Isaiah wrote, and in chapter context he hadn't spoken positively about good deeds in the other verses would have more clearly supported your dogma. But "righteousnesses" would have to include such things as those little once in a lifetime moments you speak of that in your mind absolve the person from the need to ever again keep God's commandments.
What the king James tranlates from the Textus Receptus in Isa. 64:6 as righteousness, the New American Standard tranlates from the Alexandrian manuscript as righteous deeds. It is the exact same thing. God rejects anything that is the result of man's relative righteousness.

Quote:

Isaiah is speaking of how Israel's keeping of the Mosaic laws (and no doubt how pharisees and lawyers had interpreted and added to them) were of little real value and will fade away (when the Lord fulfills that lesser law.) Isaiah adds in the same verse that it is iniquity, the breaking of the law (not the keeping of it) that has taken them away from the Lord.


Again, in your quote from Titus you demonstrate your adeptness at taking a single verse from a chapter of scripture, ignoring contradictory verses even in the same chapter (as you did with Isaiah) and spinning that single verse out of the context of the chapter to most likely in your own mind show scriptural support for your dogma and try to persuade others to follow you.


Here's an example of verses you ignored in Paul's letter to Titus, which though brief is filled with references to doing good works:

Titus 3: 1,2,5,8,14

1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,


2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.


5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us... (We all agree that we are saved by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean any of us are absolved from the commandment to keep God's commandments and do good works.)
You keep trying to turn this from salvation into the issue of spiritual production after salvation. Salvation comes first. Then in an entirely different issue, what the believer does with his spiritual life AFTER salvation determines whether or not he has any eternal rewards at the judgment seat of Christ.


Quote:
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/titus/3/1-2,5,8,14#1


As I see it, the preponderance of evidence from the scriptures when read straight and in context clearly continues to refute your dangeous dogma.
And still you continue to reject the fact that works have nothing to do with salvation. They have nothing to do with becoming saved, and they have nothing to do with maintaining your salvation.

When the disciples asked Jesus about works, here is what He said.

John 6:28-29 'Then they asked Him, ''What must we do to do the works (plural) God requires?'' Jesus answered, ''The work (singular) of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent.'' (referring to Himself).

You are denying and rejecting Titus 3:5. You are denying and rejecting Isaiah 64:6.

No doubt you will deny these as well.

Phil. 3:9 'and not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith.'

Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not work but believes in Him, who justifies the ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.
.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Romans 10:1 'Brethren, my hearts desire and my prayer to God for them is for their salvation. 2) For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not in accordance with knowledge. 3) For not knowing about Gods righteousness, and seeking to establish their own, they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God. 4) For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Even after salvation 'works' are only of value if they are done while filled with the Holy Spirit. Any works done while under the control of the Old Sin Nature are works which are done on the basis of human righteousness ( Isa. 64:6 '...all our righteous deeds are as filthy rags'.) These works will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ as 'wood, hay, and stubble.)

God is not impressed with your works. God is impressed with the work of Christ on the Cross.

Do NOT call me a liar again. Do not accuse me of trying to deceive anyone. Do not make this personal. Any more of that and I will simply have the moderators delete and hopefully penalize you.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,450,616 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
All who are saved, that is anyone who has placed his faith in Christ for salvation will be in the presence of God forever. But only those believers who advance spiritually will have rewards. The believer who becomes spiritually mature will rule with Christ among other rewards. The believer who fails to advance spiritually will still be in the presence of God but will have no rewards.
In the presence of God in the way that God is in and through all things? I agree.
All that are merely saved abide in the Presence of God? Show me!

Quote:
John 3:16 'For God so loved the world that He Gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
Then why do men die everyday that believe? The belief outlined in this verse is a belief without sin and doubt. Jesus always spoke of the highest possible outcome.
If you are speaking of not perishing after death as most take that lesson, then how do you adjust for those that are eternally damned? They havn't perished. To be damned, you must still be!

Quote:
Now, the rewards, privileges, decorations, and blessings that a believer has in eternity depend upon whether are not he advanced spiritually while alive on the earth after salvation. This has to do with Experiential sanctification.
Agreed!


Quote:
If you had read my previous posts you would have known that I make the distinction between salvation (Positional Sanctification) which takes place in a moment of time through faith in Christ, and the believers spiritual life after salvation (Experiential Sanctification) which involves a lifetime of decisions to learn Bible doctrine and apply that doctrine to your life.
That wasn't the theme i was getting, but i will review.

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 01-16-2010, 07:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,302 posts, read 5,284,911 times
Reputation: 420
Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he (Christ) hath perfected for ever them (those in Christ) that are sanctified. (Emphasis mine)

We, Christians, are clothed in Christ's blood, and are perfected in His sight, because when we approach God, we are spotless.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,450,616 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
I have learned that it is prudent to check your scriptural references carefully. Perhaps you use a different version of the bible than I do, or perhaps you are telling (little?) lies to deceive others into believing as you do, or perhaps you are just not careful when you quote erroneously and reach your own conclusions on your own interpretations??

Isaiah, in the King James version, after just speaking in verse 5 of the Lord meeting with those who work righteousness, does not say "righteous deeds" (are filthy rags) in verse 6 as you say he does. It reads instead:

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." Isaiah 64: 6

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/isa/64/1,5-6#1


"Righteous deeds" (are filthy rags) had that actually been what Isaiah wrote, and in chapter context he hadn't spoken positively about good deeds in the other verses would have more clearly supported your dogma. But "righteousnesses" would have to include such things as those little once in a lifetime moments you speak of that in your mind absolve the person from the need to ever again keep God's commandments. (So those moments of faith too would have to be among the "filthy rags" you so abhor.)

Isaiah is speaking of how Israel's keeping of the Mosaic laws (and no doubt how pharisees and lawyers had interpreted and added to them) were of little real value and will fade away (when the Lord fulfills that lesser law.) Isaiah adds in the same verse that it is iniquity, the breaking of the law (not the keeping of it) that has taken them away from the Lord.


Again, in your quote from Titus you demonstrate your adeptness at taking a single verse from a chapter of scripture, ignoring contradictory verses even in the same chapter (as you did with Isaiah) and spinning that single verse out of the context of the chapter to most likely in your own mind show scriptural support for your dogma and try to persuade others to follow you.


Here's an example of verses you ignored in Paul's letter to Titus, which though brief is filled with references to doing good works:

Titus 3: 1,2,5,8,14

1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,


2 To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, but gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.


5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us... (We all agree that we are saved by the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ. But that doesn't mean any of us are absolved from the commandment to keep God's commandments and do good works.)


8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.


http://scriptures.lds.org/en/titus/3/1-2,5,8,14#1


As I see it, the preponderance of evidence from the scriptures when read straight and in context clearly continues to refute your dangeous dogma.
Hey! stop it already.... keep going on like that and your gonna make me think you believe in this Jesus Christ Son of God guy....

godspeed brother,

freedom
 
Old 01-16-2010, 08:21 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
In the presence of God in the way that God is in and through all things? I agree.
All that are merely saved abide in the Presence of God? Show me!


Then why do men die everyday that believe? The belief outlined in this verse is a belief without sin and doubt. Jesus always spoke of the highest possible outcome.
If you are speaking of not perishing after death as most take that lesson, then how do you adjust for those that are eternally damned? They havn't perished. To be damned, you must still be!
Everyone, both believers and unbelievers die physically. Eternal life refers to the soul and human spirit entering into the presence of God at the point of physical death. (2 Cor 5:8-9) Revelation 6:9-11; 7:9-10; 20;4 shows the souls of the tribulation martyrs in Heaven. Revelation 19:7 shows the entire church--church age believers--the bride of Christ, in Heaven after the judgment seat of Christ has taken place, and about to return to the earth with Christ at the second advent. Eventually, everyone, believers of all ages, will be resurrected. The church in eternity will have as its primary dwelling place, the New Jerusalem, while the Jews and Gentiles of previous dispensations will inhabit the new earth. And of course, the believers who overcame, that is who advanced to spirituall maturity will rule with Christ.

At the end of the Millennium, all unbelievers will be resurrected and cast into the eternal lake of fire.

All believers do have an eternal relationshiip with God, but there will be no equality in the eternal state among believers. A few will have great rewards and priviledges and decorations, and most will have few or none. Actually, that eternal relationship with God begins at the moment a person believes in Christ. God wants the believer to grow up after he is saved, so that he can ''have a little bit of heaven on earth before he gets to heaven.'' And I just know someones going to misunderstand what I just said there. But I don't care. I know what I mean by it.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 08:23 PM
 
20,292 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
Hebrew 10:14 For by one offering he (Christ) hath perfected for ever them (those in Christ) that are sanctified. (Emphasis mine)

We, Christians, are clothed in Christ's blood, and are perfected in His sight, because when we approach God, we are spotless.
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