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Old 01-16-2010, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
What the king James tranlates from the Textus Receptus in Isa. 64:6 as righteousness, the New American Standard tranlates from the Alexandrian manuscript as righteous deeds. It is the exact same thing. God rejects anything that is the result of man's relative righteousness.

You keep trying to turn this from salvation into the issue of spiritual production after salvation. Salvation comes first. Then in an entirely different issue, what the believer does with his spiritual life AFTER salvation determines whether or not he has any eternal rewards at the judgment seat of Christ...
I provided a list of options any of which could logically explain the discrepancy between what's actually written in the scripture and what you said was there. And I also used the word "perhaps." So I did not call you a liar! Had I done so, my guess is that the thing you desire would have already happened, I'm sure this thread is being very carefully watched because we're into the meat of some serious stuff instead of just praises and arbitrary prideful congratulations you're saveds but they're nots.

But ok, you are using a different bible and apparently that "new" translation you favor differs from the way the King James version is written.

I continue though to think that your 'moment of faith' thing would be included in the description of "righteousnesses" which is the word used in the King James version and which you say is the same as the word used in your new bible. (Surely you think whatever momentary peak experience it was you had that absolved you forever from keeping God's commandments was something righteous right?) And therefore your moments would also be of as much worth, at least in the eyes of Isaiah, as those "filthy rags" that you often refer to to 'support' your dogma.

As I see it, it is you who keeps twisting scriptures from what they actually mean to interpretations that 'support' your dogma. The requirement to keep God's commandments is all over the scriptures. But that doesn't fit well into your moment of faith dogma so to explain that away your mentors and theirs invent an unbiblical arm of flesh post-moment construct they label "spiritual production" that in effect is, in plain English, KEEPING GOD'S COMMANDMENTS AND DOING GOOD WORKS. And send (in your own minds) everyone except yourselves to hell if they didn't do that moment as well as you apparently think you did.

And then twist even that into some strange notions about "rewards" and "medals" and "ribbons" and "bema judgments" etc. separate from going to heaven and living there with God forever, which is probably the goal and hope of most Christians.

Isn't the greatest post mortal reward (salvation) to live forever in the presence of God? And yet you think that even unrepentant murderers, rapists, etc. are going to live there forever in perfect peace with their victims and God and Jesus Christ?

Where's the justice or even the common sense in that?

 
Old 01-16-2010, 08:38 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Hey! stop it already.... keep going on like that and your gonna make me think you believe in this Jesus Christ Son of God guy....

godspeed brother,

freedom
I kinda do you know brother freedom, but hey, maybe I misinterpreted that single verse in the bible that mentions him?
 
Old 01-16-2010, 08:58 PM
 
20,290 posts, read 15,633,754 times
Reputation: 7403
Quote:
Originally Posted by justamere10 View Post
I provided a list of options any of which could logically explain the discrepancy between what's actually written in the scripture and what you said was there. And I also used the word "perhaps." So I did not call you a liar! Had I done so, my guess is that the thing you desire would have already happened, I'm sure this thread is being very carefully watched because we're into the meat of some serious stuff instead of just praises and arbitrary prideful congratulations you're saveds but they're nots.

But ok, you are using a different bible and apparently that "new" translation you favor differs from the way the King James version is written.

I continue though to think that your 'moment of faith' thing would be included in the description of "righteousnesses" which is the word used in the King James version and which you say is the same as the word used in your new bible. (Surely you think whatever momentary peak experience it was you had that absolved you forever from keeping God's commandments was something righteous right?) And therefore your moments would also be of as much worth, at least in the eyes of Isaiah, as those "filthy rags" that you often refer to to 'support' your dogma.

As I see it, it is you who keeps twisting scriptures from what they actually mean to interpretations that 'support' your dogma. The requirement to keep God's commandments is all over the scriptures.
Not as a requirment for eternal salvation. I keep telling you that there is a distinction between salvation through faith and the way that the spiritual life is lived after salvation. And it just does not sink into your head.

Quote:
But that doesn't fit well into your moment of faith dogma so to explain that away your mentors and theirs invent an unbiblical arm of flesh post-moment construct they label "spiritual production" that in effect is, in plain English, KEEPING GOD'S COMMANDMENTS AND DOING GOOD WORKS. And send (in your own minds) everyone except yourselves to hell if they didn't do that moment as well as you apparently think you did.

And then twist even that into some strange notions about "rewards" and "medals" and "ribbons" and "bema judgments" etc. separate from going to heaven and living there with God forever, which is probably the goal and hope of most Christians.
Do you ever bother to research anything before you post. Do some very basic research on eternal rewards. And the judgment seat or bema seat of Christ. These passages speak of the judgment seat. (I Corinthians 3:12-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Romans 14:10-12.)

These 'strange notions' are very basic doctrines of the word of God. How it is that you who profess to be a Christian know nothing about them. Revelation 2 and 3 lists some of the eternal rewards. Do some research on the crowns that are awarded.

Go to my link here;

The Crowns and Eternal Rewards of the Believer who Overcomes

And within that link are two other links about eternal rewards.

Do some research on the importance that the Apostle Paul gave to living in such a way as to not be disqualified from receiving those rewards.

Quote:
Isn't the greatest post mortal reward (salvation) to live forever in the presence of God? And yet you think that even unrepentant murderers, rapists, etc. are going to live there forever in perfect peace with their victims and God and Jesus Christ?

Where's the justice or even the common sense in that?
And still you understand nothing about the grace of God.

Do some research on the difference between Positional sanctification, and Experiential sanctification.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,450,616 times
Reputation: 1101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Everyone, both believers and unbelievers die physically.
Moses, Enoch and the city of Enoch (unknown number), Elijah, Tekla (a convert of Paul). Whomever Jesus was speaking of when He said there be some standing here who shall not taste of death, til they see the Son of Man coming with Power....(to my knowledge hasn't happened yet).
Then there are those that are translated when He returns in His Kingdom.

Jesus said to those that keep His word, "YE Shall never Die".

Quote:
At the end of the Millennium, all unbelievers will be resurrected and cast into the eternal lake of fire.
Will they know their in that fire forever? Or are you speaking of the 2nd death?

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Utah
2,331 posts, read 2,952,318 times
Reputation: 221
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post

1. Not as a requirment for eternal salvation. I keep telling you that there is a distinction between salvation through faith and the way that the spiritual life is lived after salvation. And it just does not sink into your head.

Do you ever bother to research anything before you post. Do some very basic research on eternal rewards. And the judgment seat or bema seat of Christ. These passages speak of the judgment seat. (I Corinthians 3:12-15; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Romans 14:10-12.) These 'strange notions' are very basic doctrines of the word of God. How it is that you who profess to be a Christian know nothing about them. Revelation 2 and 3 lists some of the eternal rewards. Do some research on the crowns that are awarded.

2. And within that link are two other links about eternal rewards. Do some research on the importance that the Apostle Paul gave to living in such a way as to not be disqualified from receiving those rewards.

3. And still you understand nothing about the grace of God.

4. Do some research on the difference between Positional sanctification, and Experiential sanctification.
1. That "distinction" is yours and is gleaned from the twists and turns the scholars who invented your dogma had to make with certain verses of scripture even as they ignored others. People who have not bought into your group think would simply call your constuct keeping the commandments of God.

2. I too believe that there is more to salvation (meaning going to "heaven") than simply a black and white one little heaven and one big hell deal. As I understand it there are actually three heavens, each with many mansions.

So of course there would in effect be "rewards" meaning that not everyone who goes to heaven will have equal status or be as near to the heaven where God and Jesus Christ live as others. And I too, as you I think do, believe that those "rewards" are distributed according to how well we kept God's commandments and chose consistently good versus evil during mortality.

But that process takes place regardless of your 'moment of faith' invention because salvation of course is only made possible because of the atonement of Jesus Christ, we all know that. Paul and other prophets (even Isaiah) consistently teach the necessity of keeping God's commandments (which you deny except to obtain "rewards" which is pretty much saying the same thing everyone else is without the imposition of that "moment" thing that you have created out of no valid substance.)

3. I clearly understand that salvation is only made possible because of Christ's atonement and his willingness to balance the scales of justice for us when it is impossible for us to do so on our own because we are all sinners. It is you who makes complex even such a simple principle as grace and then accuses others of not understanding it. What others do not understand or at least do not bow down to is the way YOU and your aggressive, ungentle, uncaring, unloving, judgmental, faux elitist group defines "grace." (As I see it.)


4. I searched the entire bible for mention of the words "bema" and "Positional Sanctification" and "Experiential Sanctification" and did not find them. In my view they are simply inventions and constructs of arm of flesh scholars (pharisees and lawyers) who do their best to make the Gospel of Jesus Christ and God's Plan of Salvation complex and understandable only to them so they can gain status, adulation, rewards, and financial compensation for arguing with each other. They tend to attract a following of groupies some of whom apparently like to pretend that they are special and know it all and are the only elite children of God on the way to heaven...


But enough of this, the shadows have grown very long on my side of the mountain. We'll see what tomorrow brings...
 
Old 01-16-2010, 10:18 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,459 posts, read 21,197,034 times
Reputation: 17675
This thread is closed per OP's request..Thank you all for your information and feel free to start new threads on the off topics here..
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