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3. Yes, I know, salvation is made possible by the grace of Jesus Christ who took upon himself the sins of all mankind. (But we still have to keep God's commandments and repent when we don't!) As I understand it, this entire mortal experience is meant to be a time to learn and be tested to see where we can best fit in to have peace with each other as brothers and sisters in the eternities, and to take up higher or lesser responsibilities in God's celestial family according to the choices we made on earth.
To put it crudely but frankly (because I think it would be helpful to expose what is being taught in this thread for what seems to be at its foundation when the pretty cover is stripped away) OSAS as aggressively taught by the op violates that purpose of living with the inference that God sort of throws the dice everytime a human being is born to decide if He's going to roast that baby and listen to his or her screams forever, or ok, for this one, not! In the op's opinion, as I understand it, it seems that there's really no reason for living than to do the momentary once in a lifetime "act of faith in Jesus" the op dictates, or else provide fuel to keep the devil from freezing. (I know that's nasty, but it's what I personally find lurking under the cloak of OSAS as aggressively with frequent threats taught by the op. It may be quite different and just a normal interdenominational discussion if the forcefed threats to everyone who does not believe the op's dogma were not always being pushed...)
4. Same as 3, I already know that it is only through the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ that I can be saved. I don't need some highly arbitrary complex arm of flesh scholarly construct such as OSAS to 'explain' the process of "salvation" and what I should do to know God and Jesus Christ, demonstrate love and respect for them and all of God's children, and have a realistic hope for a better afterlife experience.
5. Maybe they are, salvation is made possible by the atonement of Jesus Christ and his consequent right to apply grace and mercy to balance the scales of justice, no argument. (But we still have to keep God's commandments and repent when we don't!)
6. That's right! Except that we do commit sin and we do need to repent and we will be judged according to how closer we came to being as righteous as God is (perfect) by our choices between good and evil thoughts and behavior. (Including how we judged and treated others.)
I apologize to those who may be a bit more tender hearted and thinner skinned than perhaps they should be when reading religion and politics discussion forums. It is my preference to be loving and kind and gentle, as the Savior taught we should be. But when faced with people who consistently judge and CONDEMN me and others to eternal damnation if we don't believe what they preach, then I feel that it becomes necessary to fight that fire with fire and do what I can to expose the dogma for what is most likely at its foundation. (However effective that may or may not be.) In the end I have, or do my best to have and to demonstrate love for God and for all of His children weak and erring and human as we all may be.
Again. DISTINQUISH between the moment of salvation through faith alone in Christ alone, and the believers spiritual life AFTER salvation. This is a very simple and clear statement and yet it just goes right over your head. You are unable to comprehend it. You can not see that I am talking about salvation and not the believers spiritual life after salvation. And you refuse to see that how the believer lives his life after he has been saved has NO bearing on remaining saved.
The simple fact of the matter is that you reject the grace of God and prefer legalism. And therefore you are offended when confronted with grace. The mormon concept of grace is not what the Bible teaches. The mormons define grace as 'saved AFTER ALL THAT WE CAN DO'. That is NOT grace. Grace is all that God is free to do for man on the basis of the Cross. Grace excludes works.
Romans 11:6 'But if it is by grace, then it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.'
And this is what you reject.
Neither do you understand this. Spiritual production is the result of spiritual growth. Not the means of producing spiritual growth.
And finally, by attacking eternal security, you attack the grace of God and show yourself to be estranged from the truth. You are hostile to the truth.
Is it my understanding that you think one can just skate through life continuing to sin, without repenting of that sin and turning from it....because Jesus covers it all up without one doing anything?
If a believer ''skates through life continuing to sin, without repenting of that sin and turning from it'', that believer will lose eternal rewards, and he will come under discipline in time. He will NOT lose his salvation.
And the sacrifice of Christ did not COVER our sins. The animal sacrifices of the O.T. covered their sins. The ONCE AND FOR ALL SACRIFICE of Christ REMOVED our sins as far as the east is from the west. Psalms 103:12.
The sacrifice of Christ was once for all. Hebrews 10:10-14.
Therefore, sin is not an issue in salvation. The only issue is placing your trust in Christ to secure your eternal salvation.
The unbelievers sins that he committed before salvation are forgiven at the moment he believes in Christ because those sins were already judged at the Cross.
But for anyone who does NOT believe in Christ for salvation:
John 8:24, 'I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I AM, you shall die in your sins.'
Any sin that a believer commits AFTER salvation is forgiven when he names that sin to God the Father as per 1 John 1:9. And this is because any sin that a believer can commit was already judged at the Cross.
This discussion is about salvation....not about what happens after death.
We have been asked to stay on topic.
Salvation is about what happens after death. Salvation means an eternal relationship with God. No salvation means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. I almost used one of those smacking himself on the forehead smilies.
Again. DISTINQUISH between the moment of salvation through faith alone in Christ alone, and the believers spiritual life AFTER salvation. This is a very simple and clear statement and yet it just goes right over your head. You are unable to comprehend it. You can not see that I am talking about salvation and not the believers spiritual life after salvation. And you refuse to see that how the believer lives his life after he has been saved has NO bearing on remaining saved.
I think I understand it quite well, but you are certainly free to clearly explain what you mean each time you write the word "salvation." I've asked for that definition before.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think you are preaching that if someone regardless of how sinful and unrepentant they are, takes a moment, maybe even less than a minute, and affirms in his or her mind that they have faith in Jesus Christ, then from that moment on, regardless of how sinful they continue to be or how wicked they become (including even murdering, raping, and/or verbally rejecting Christ), and regardless of how God choses to judge how well they lived their life, they will go to heaven after death.
Is that a correct understanding of what you are personally preaching?
If a believer ''skates through life continuing to sin, without repenting of that sin and turning from it'', that believer will lose eternal rewards, and he will come under discipline in time. He will NOT lose his salvation.
OMGoodness....now I can see what it is you truly believe and it is contrary to EVERYTHING Jesus said. Thank you for clearing that up for me so that I don't waste any more of my time conversing with you.
Salvation is about what happens after death. Salvation means an eternal relationship with God. No salvation means eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. I almost used one of those smacking himself on the forehead smilies.
Isn't salvation really about life, life more abundant, life filled with joy, peace, and all the other fruit of the spirit?
You speak of salvation as the completion of one's faith. I've seen this so often in professed born-agains. They get to a point where they wish for death, thinking that Jesus will make them something that they either did not desire, or He didn't require.
Salvation is nothing more than being salvaged and providing a system of repentance through the Gift of God.
Repentance... true repentance is a right about face to living righteously.
Do you think Jesus doesn't want us to keep His word? no you don't think that.
Why focus so much on what has been done, and so little on what we are commanded, guided, and born to do?
Isa. 64:6 'For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. (Literally, a used Menstrual rag) That is what God thinks of mans relative righteousness.
You quote the filthy rags verse a lot but as I see it you spin its meaning to fit into your construct. To me that short chapter is all about Isaiah expressing a longing for the Second Coming of Christ when Israel shall be freed from wickedness and the righteous among her shall at last be saved from sin.
1 Oh that thou wouldest rend the heavens, that thou wouldest come down... (the next verses indicate that it is the Second Coming that Isaiah is referring to, not when Christ was born to Mary.)
5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; forwe have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved.
6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses (keeping the laws of the OLD covenant) are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, (breaking the commandments) like the wind, have taken us away. Isaiah 64: 1,5-6
Scholars and the intellect of almost any person can no doubt come up with many other ways to interpret verses from the 64th chapter of Isaiah. But the point is that the "word of God" that you proudly proclaim as the only truth, is not necessarily what the writer of the book of scripture you are referring to intended to convey to his target audience. Instead it is simply your own (and possibly your mentors' and theirs) INTERPRETATION of the words that are actually written in some translation in some version of some bible that you happen to be referring to.
Last edited by justamere10; 01-16-2010 at 01:32 PM..
In this particular verse.....they are speaking to believers and giving them the foundations for living a Christlike life. This is in no way pertaining to unbelievers.
Exactly. He talks to people who have been saved. The trimming and burning of the branches is also for believers. The unfruitful branches are burned in the fire, but the fire is only a test to see how much they have accomplished. It cannot be reference to eternal fire, because it adds that even if you fail the test of the fire, you are still saved.
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Examining those filthy rags...
