U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Closed Thread Start New Thread
 
Old 01-09-2010, 11:46 PM
 
18,184 posts, read 13,903,835 times
Reputation: 5972

Advertisements

The Word of God does not contradict itself. And God is serious about His holiness. God has made it clear that salvation is neither earned or maintained by ANY work on the part of man. God is perfectly holy and no work of man can measure up to His perfect holiness, which is comprised of His justice and righteousness.

Isaiah 64:6 tells us what God thinks of human righteousness. ''For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. (Literally menstrual rags). In Gods sight, the best of human righteousness is no better then used menstrual rags.

And therefore, for that very reason, we are told in Titus 3:5 ''He saved us NOT ON THE BASIS OF DEEDS WHICH WE HAVE DONE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6) whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7) that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This is why God must impute HIS perfect righteousness to the one who BELIEVES in Christ, so that he can be pronounced justified by God. When God looks at the believer in Christ, He sees ONLY His perfect righteousness. Because of the perfect and finished work of Christ on the Cross the sin problem has been taken out of the way.

Psalms 103:1O He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11) For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness (Old Testament word for grace) toward those who fear Him.
12) As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

The work of Christ on the Cross is complete. It is finished. Every single sin in the history of the human race, past, present, and future has ALREADY been paid for.

We are told in Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
12) but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.
14) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctifed.

Jesus Christ performed the work in providing salvation. That means there is no more work to be done. God requires us to only accept His offer of salvation through faith in Christ. There is no merit in our faith. The merit is in the object of our faith. The object of our faith in salvation is Jesus Christ.

We are NEVER told to do anything accept to believe in Christ. That means to trust in Christ for our salvation. If we don't trust in Christ for salvation, then by default, we must trust in our own works for salvation, and our works are without exception, REJECTED by infinitely just and holy God. It is the works of the unbeliever by which he is judged and condemned to the eternal lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

Mark 16:16 is not telling us that we must be baptized in order to be saved. In the first place, some of the oldest manuscripts don't even contain Mark 16:9-20. So it is not even certain that that entire passage is there. Even if it is, it must be compared with all the other salvation passages that tell us that all we must do is to believe. And it must be noted that the second half of verse 16 says only that 'he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'' It must also be noted that without exception, everyone who was baptized in the N.T. had already previously believed in Christ BEFORE being baptized.

Matthew 25:31-46 does NOT teach that works are the basis of salvation. Since the explanation of the passage is lengthy, I have provided a link which explains it.

Matthew 25:31-46 -- Works Salvation? (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html - broken link)

Nor does Matthew 19:16-25 teach salvation by works. Jesus had simply answered the erroneous question of the rich young ruler who mistakenly thought that he must do something to earn eternal life. And so Christ told him the requirements of the law if he were to earn salvation. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law. Only Christ was able to fulfill the requirements of the law. And so when anyone believes in Christ, the law has already been fulfilled by Christ.

People who don't understand the difference between positional sanctification and experiential sanctification confuse salvation with the spiritual life after salvation. I have provided another link which explains the different stages of sanctifcation.

Biblical Sanctification

Phil. 2:12 which tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling is not talking about eternal salvation at all. It is talking about temporal salvation from the trials and difficulties of life after salvation. It has to do with picking up your cross and following Christ. It means to be a disciple rather than simply a believer. Here is yet another link to help you to understand it.

Working Out Your Salvation--Philippians 2:12 (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1993/93may3.html - broken link)

It must be understood that eternal salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, and that you can never lose your salvation, because your salvation depends entirely on the work of Christ on the Cross and never depends on you. One simple act of faith in Christ secures your salvation forever.

It must also be understood that this is NOT a license to sin. Sin has been paid for on the Cross, but as you commit sin in your life after salvation, it puts you out of fellowship with God and under the control of your old sin nature, and can bring about divine discipline if you don't name the sin to God. (Heb. 12:5-13; Rev. 3:19-21). Here is one more link with reqard to naming your sins to God so that you as a believer may be restored to fellowship.

Doctrine of Rebound (http://jrcyouth.com/love1.htm - broken link)

Failure to obey God and grow up spiritually does not and cannot cause you to lose your salvation, but it can result in a loss of eternal rewards and blessing that otherwise would have been yours.

The last thing that I am going to say is this. And the works crowd had better pay attention. You are either ENTIRELY trusting in and depending on Christ for your salvation, or you are trusting in and depending on your works, your efforts to earn your salvation. And if you are depending on your works to save you, if you try to add your works to the work of Christ on the Cross, then you have NOT trusted in Christ for your salvation AND YOU ARE NOT SAVED. You will be condemned to the eternal lake of fire based on YOUR works. Those who are working to maintain their salvation probably never simply believed in Christ for salvation and were never saved in the first place.

This is the most important issue that you will ever face in life. Listen to the Word of God.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Acts 26:18 ''...in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.

Last edited by Mike555; 01-10-2010 at 12:57 AM..

 
Old 01-10-2010, 01:41 AM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 3,437,134 times
Reputation: 564
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Word of God does not contradict itself. And God is serious about His holiness. God has made it clear that salvation is neither earned or maintained by ANY work on the part of man. God is perfectly holy and no work of man can measure up to His perfect holiness, which is comprised of His justice and righteousness.

Isaiah 64:6 tells us what God thinks of human righteousness. ''For all of us have become like one who is unclean, And all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment. (Literally menstrual rags). In Gods sight, the best of human righteousness is no better then used menstrual rags.

And therefore, for that very reason, we are told in Titus 3:5 ''He saved us NOT ON THE BASIS OF DEEDS WHICH WE HAVE DONE IN RIGHTEOUSNESS, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6) whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7) that being justified by His grace we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

This is why God must impute HIS perfect righteousness to the one who BELIEVES in Christ, so that he can be pronounced justified by God. When God looks at the believer in Christ, He sees ONLY His perfect righteousness. Because of the perfect and finished work of Christ on the Cross the sin problem has been taken out of the way.

Psalms 103:1O He has not dealt with us according to our sins, Nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.
11) For as high as the heavens are above the earth, So great is His lovingkindness (Old Testament word for grace) toward those who fear Him.
12) As far as the east is from the west, So far has He removed our transgressions from us.

The work of Christ on the Cross is complete. It is finished. Every single sin in the history of the human race, past, present, and future has ALREADY been paid for.

We are told in Hebrews 10:10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
12) but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God.
14) For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctifed.

Jesus Christ performed the work in providing salvation. That means there is no more work to be done. God requires us to only accept His offer of salvation through faith in Christ. There is no merit in our faith. The merit is in the object of our faith. The object of our faith in salvation is Jesus Christ.

We are NEVER told to do anything accept to believe in Christ. That means to trust in Christ for our salvation. If we don't trust in Christ for salvation, then by default, we must trust in our own works for salvation, and our works are without exception, REJECTED by infinitely just and holy God. It is the works of the unbeliever by which he is judged and condemned to the eternal lake of fire. Revelation 20:11-15

Mark 16:16 is not telling us that we must be baptized in order to be saved. In the first place, some of the oldest manuscripts don't even contain Mark 16:9-20. So it is not even certain that that entire passage is there. Even if it is, it must be compared with all the other salvation passages that tell us that all we must do is to believe. And it must be noted that the second half of verse 16 says only that 'he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.'' It must also be noted that without exception, everyone who was baptized in the N.T. had already previously believed in Christ BEFORE being baptized.

Matthew 25:31-46 does NOT teach that works are the basis of salvation. Since the explanation of the passage is lengthy, I have provided a link which explains it.

Matthew 25:31-46 -- Works Salvation? (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1988/88march1.html - broken link)

Nor does Matthew 19:16-25 teach salvation by works. Jesus had simply answered the erroneous question of the rich young ruler who mistakenly thought that he must do something to earn eternal life. And so Christ told him the requirements of the law if he were to earn salvation. No one has ever been saved by keeping the law. Only Christ was able to fulfill the requirements of the law. And so when anyone believes in Christ, the law has already been fulfilled by Christ.

People who don't understand the difference between positional sanctification and experiential sanctification confuse salvation with the spiritual life after salvation. I have provided another link which explains the different stages of sanctifcation.

Biblical Sanctification

Phil. 2:12 which tells us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling is not talking about eternal salvation at all. It is talking about temporal salvation from the trials and difficulties of life after salvation. It has to do with picking up your cross and following Christ. It means to be a disciple rather than simply a believer. Here is yet another link to help you to understand it.

Working Out Your Salvation--Philippians 2:12 (http://www.faithalone.org/news/y1993/93may3.html - broken link)

It must be understood that eternal salvation is through faith alone in Christ alone, and that you can never lose your salvation, because your salvation depends entirely on the work of Christ on the Cross and never depends on you. One simple act of faith in Christ secures your salvation forever.

It must also be understood that this is NOT a license to sin. Sin has been paid for on the Cross, but as you commit sin in your life after salvation, it puts you out of fellowship with God and under the control of your old sin nature, and can bring about divine discipline if you don't name the sin to God. (Heb. 12:5-13; Rev. 3:19-21). Here is one more link with reqard to naming your sins to God so that you as a believer may be restored to fellowship.

Doctrine of Rebound (http://jrcyouth.com/love1.htm - broken link)

Failure to obey God and grow up spiritually does not and cannot cause you to lose your salvation, but it can result in a loss of eternal rewards and blessing that otherwise would have been yours.

The last thing that I am going to say is this. And the works crowd had better pay attention. You are either ENTIRELY trusting in and depending on Christ for your salvation, or you are trusting in and depending on your works, your efforts to earn your salvation. And if you are depending on your works to save you, if you try to add your works to the work of Christ on the Cross, then you have NOT trusted in Christ for your salvation AND YOU ARE NOT SAVED. You will be condemned to the eternal lake of fire based on YOUR works. Those who are working to maintain their salvation probably never simply believed in Christ for salvation and were never saved in the first place.

This is the most important issue that you will ever face in life. Listen to the Word of God.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

Acts 26:18 ''...in order that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.
May God's Truth be heard and may we shout it from the mountains!! Mike now you are fully clothed in your armor for you certainly have welded a two-edged sword in this post!! May these scriptures (the sword) judge the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Praise God and amen!!!

Hebrews 4:12

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
 
Old 01-10-2010, 10:51 AM
 
18,184 posts, read 13,903,835 times
Reputation: 5972
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
May God's Truth be heard and may we shout it from the mountains!! Mike now you are fully clothed in your armor for you certainly have welded a two-edged sword in this post!! May these scriptures (the sword) judge the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Praise God and amen!!!

Hebrews 4:12

12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.
Thanks Raelyn. Many people don't seem to understand grace. Others simply reject it in favor of their own works. There's pride involved. Not to mention self righteous legalistic religious arrogance. '' Look at 'Me'. I am good enough to impress God with MY righteousness and earn my way into Heaven.'' And there is no getting through to these people.

Still, there are those who will respond to the truth when it is given to them. And is it for them that I have posted this.
 
Old 01-10-2010, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Socialist Republik of Amerika
6,212 posts, read 11,009,469 times
Reputation: 1094
Does your view on grace allow for willful disobedience?

Does your view on grace have no judgement day?

Does your view against walking and living Christ make us better Sons and Daughters of God?

My view is that Salvation "alone" as you are teaching, has no mechanism that promotes perfection, but apathy, and spiritual stillborn children of God.

For more clarity, could you site the Bible version you are using?

godspeed,

freedom
 
Old 01-10-2010, 11:20 AM
 
4,290 posts, read 4,125,653 times
Reputation: 816
Salvation is a free gift, but that free gift can be returned through disobedience. If you obey God, you are a child of God; if you disobey God, then you're a child of the devil. There's no such thing as "Once saved, always saved". If there was, then why would we need to examine ourselves before partaking in Holy Communion? Paul is speaking to the Church.

1 Corinthians 11
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
 
Old 01-10-2010, 11:21 AM
 
18,184 posts, read 13,903,835 times
Reputation: 5972
Quote:
Originally Posted by freedom View Post
Does your view on grace allow for willful disobedience?

Does your view on grace have no judgement day?

Does your view against walking and living Christ make us better Sons and Daughters of God?
Try reading what I wrote. If you had comprehended what I said, you would have never asked any of those three questions.


Quote:
My view is that Salvation "alone" as you are teaching, has no mechanism that promotes perfection, but apathy, and spiritual stillborn children of God.

For more clarity, could you site the Bible version you are using?

godspeed,

freedom
Read the post, read the links. I didn't post them just to take up space. Try and understand what is being said. Right at the very beginning of the post I gave two verses that make it clear what God thinks about human righteousness.

I use the NASV as well as the kJV. Also a Greek/English Interlinear Bible.
 
Old 01-10-2010, 11:35 AM
 
18,184 posts, read 13,903,835 times
Reputation: 5972
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Salvation is a free gift, but that free gift can be returned through disobedience. If you obey God, you are a child of God; if you disobey God, then you're a child of the devil. There's no such thing as "Once saved, always saved". If there was, then why would we need to examine ourselves before partaking in Holy Communion? Paul is speaking to the Church.

1 Corinthians 11
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
That is talking about physical death. It is not talking about loss of salvation. God disciplines the believer as a family matter. (Prov.3:11-12; Heb 12:5-13; Revelation 3:19-21)

Every sin in the history of the human race was paid for by Christ. Are you not able to understand what that means?

Read the post and read the links.
 
Old 01-10-2010, 11:45 AM
 
4,290 posts, read 4,125,653 times
Reputation: 816
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
That is talking about physical death. It is not talking about loss of salvation. God disciplines the believer as a family matter. (Prov.3:11-12; Heb 12:5-13; Revelation 3:19-21)

Every sin in the history of the human race was paid for by Christ. Are you not able to understand what that means?

Read the post and read the links.
Physical damnation ????

Jesus paid the price for our sin, and to set us free from sin. Therfore, He did not shed His blood for us to continue in sin, merely just covering up our sin. If we willfully sin, even just one sin, after receiving salvation, then we are obeying our father, the devil. You can try to spin it all you want, but God's Word stands true.

...yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;... - Romans 3:4
 
Old 01-10-2010, 12:08 PM
 
18,184 posts, read 13,903,835 times
Reputation: 5972
Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Physical damnation ????
It's called the sin unto death. the disobedient believer can be taken out of this life under maximum divine discipline. He simply goes home to be with the Lord in disgrace.

Quote:
Jesus paid the price for our sin, and to set us free from sin. Therfore, He did not shed His blood for us to continue in sin, merely just covering up our sin. If we willfully sin, even just one sin, after receiving salvation, then we are obeying our father, the devil. You can try to spin it all you want, but God's Word stands true.

...yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;... - Romans 3:4
1 John 1:9 'If we acknowledge our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.' This is for believers. Simply name the sin to God and you are restored to fellowship. You do not lose your salvation when you sin, you simply come under the control of your old sin nature.

Once born again into the family of God, God is the believers heavenly father. Sin does not cause you to be cast out of your eternal relationship with God.

Christ paid the penalty for sin. Therefore the believer can not be condemned for a sin that has already been paid for. He can come under discipline in time, but will never lose his salvation.

Read the post and read the links.
 
Old 01-10-2010, 05:49 PM
 
Location: Forests of Maine
28,078 posts, read 44,173,557 times
Reputation: 15093
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The Word of God does not contradict itself. And God is serious about His holiness. God has made it clear that salvation is neither earned or maintained by ANY work on the part of man. God is perfectly holy and no work of man can measure up to His perfect holiness, which is comprised of His justice and righteousness.
.,..
You got it right!

Keep going!

Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:27 PM.

2005-2017, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32 - Top