The Freedom / Bondage of the Will (Revelation, evolution, Jesus, verse)

[Jremy]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

Any good cigars left over?....if so, send 'em on over...LOL I love a good cigar, my stash is gettin' low..

Actually it was cigarettes. About a pack and a half a day, probably more. Man, I really loved those things.

Now I can't stand them.

But that was nearly 19 years ago, so even if they were cigars and I had any left over, I don't think you'd want to smoke any unless you were pretty desperate.

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by Jremy

The choice to quit smoking.

I know from personal experience. :-)

When I decided to quit smoking, was I forced to do so? No. Was I heavily influenced to do so by my concern for my health and my Christian testimony? Absolutely.

Force != influence.
Force != desire.

And so your decision to quit was not free from causality or influence and therefore not free.

What about, say, something more mundane like the choice to eat at McDonald's? What is making a person drive to McDonald's, and, once he gets there, what forces him to choose the Big Mac meal instead of the fish filet meal?

Knowing that the Big Mac will make him feel better and feel fuller longer is what causes him to choose the Big Mac over the fish.

What about the people who say: I just can't quit smoking!? Are they, at that point in time in their lives free to quit? Of course not.

[Jremy]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

And so your decision to quit was not free from causality or influence and therefore not free.

You are right in saying "causality OR influence," because they are not one and the same. That is why I think your argument is flawed.

Knowing that the Big Mac will make him feel better and feel fuller longer is what causes him to choose the Big Mac over the fish.

That is just where we part ways, and I guess we're going to have to leave it at that. Sorry, I just can't equate "knowing that the Big Mac will make him feel better" with cause. Knowledge doesn't make you do anything. It may influence your decisions and help you make sound choices, but it does not make you do anything.

What about the people who say: I just can't quit smoking!? Are they, at that point in time in their lives free to quit? Of course not.

I was free to quit. It was tough, sure. But I did it.

[AlabamaStorm]

Originally Posted by Jremy

...But that was nearly 19 years ago, so even if they were cigars and I had any left over, I don't think you'd want to smoke any....

A 20 year old cigar is a blessing my friend . Many aged cigars will draw so well they'll smoke by themselves...LOL

I can already sense the experience...close your eyes, sit back and enjoy one of the riches of His creation, take in it's wrapped aroma's while giving thanks and contemplating on the wonders of His Gospel...wow...life is good my friend... (The trinity salute).

[mercy777]

Originally Posted by Eusebius

Then if you say "he chooses to sin" you must conclude his choice was not a free choice because something caused him to choose to sin. His choice was not uncaused. Therefore he is not responsible. No one sins for no reason at all.

Give me one choice that is not uncaused.

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

James 1: 13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived,(desiring your own will, not the will of God) it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
If your desire is for the things of God,(living by the Spirit) then there is no evil desire.
John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder,
John 5:42
but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts.
Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
2 Corinthians 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Roman 5:5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us

[Jremy]

Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm

A 20 year old cigar is a blessing my friend . Many aged cigars will draw so well they'll smoke by themselves...LOL

Ah, I didn't know that. Shows what I know.

[Richard1965]

[quote=Jremy;12395054]I'm continuing a conversation that was started in another thread (with Mike555, iirc) because I think it was off-topic there. I apologize for the length of this, as well as the small font size in some places (I typed it first in other software and then pasted it here).

I'm afraid you're missing the point. Grammatically speaking, the conditional aspect of the text does not say anything about human ability. That is not the intention of a conditional statement. A similar thing can be said about commands: A command is an imperative, not a declarative, statement, so it does not speak about what we can do but what we ought to do.

But I noticed that you didn't define free will. What is your definition of it? We will make the best use of our time if we define what we are talking about. I've already shared my definition; what is yours? Only then can we proceed to hold them up to the light of scripture.


If what you say is true--that God draws everyone through the Gospel—then you end up with universalism, i.e., that everyone will be saved. You may say, “No, because men can resist the drawing.” But that cannot be. God does not allow for the possibility that those who are drawn might not come to Christ. The three activities in John 6—the Father’s giving of people to the Son, those people coming to Christ, and Christ’s raising them up on the last day--cannot be separated; they are all tied to one another, as can be seen in John 6:

“36"But I said to you that you have seen Me, and yet do not believe.
37"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.
38"For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
40"For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.”

The act of coming to Christ—believing in him—is clearly tied inseparably to the Father’s giving of such individuals to the Son (v. 37). Moreover, they come to the Son because they have heard and learned from the Father (v. 45). The passage also teaches that those individuals will—most definitely, without fail—one day be raised up by Christ (v. 40). This is absolutely guaranteed, as the boldfaced text shows, because Jesus’ purpose in coming to earth was to do the will of the Father, and it is the Father’s will that he should lose nobody that the Father has given to him. This passage, therefore, does not teach the mere possibility of salvation, a possibility somehow contingent upon man’s decision to submit or to resist the call. Instead it clearly teaches the guarantee of salvation to some.

No, in fact, I don't because there is nothing stupid about it. It may conflict with the particular order of salvation that you have been taught and have come to believe, but that does not make it stupid. In addition, many things in the Bible seem stupid and foolish to our reasoning. That, however, does not make them wrong. John 1:13 makes it clear that we are not born again by our own will but of God.




I have to wonder how anyone could make the “decision” to believe or not to believe when, in an unregenerate state, he cannot even see the kingdom of God (John 3:3), is spiritually dead, and cannot even submit to the law of God (Romans 8:7). Furthermore, one has to wonder how people have such freedom of the will, as if they were completely neutral toward God, when Scripture plainly indicates the opposite in Romans 3:10-18 (NASB):

"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
13"THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE,
WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,"
"THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS";
14"WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS";
15"THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD,
16DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS,
17AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN."
18"THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES."

That is not the description of people who are in any way neutral—not by any stretch of the imagination. What you are trying to say is that in spite of man’s lack of understanding, in spite of the fact that he does not seek for God, and despite the fact that he has no fear of God, he will—somehow, by some strange power within him—come to his senses, change all of that and suddenly turn to God, all on his own.

If you respond to this by saying, “No, it’s not all on his own. The gospel gives him understanding and the Holy Spirit convicts him of sin,” then you still have to deal with the fact that mere understanding is not enough to convert a dead sinner because man’s very nature is hostile toward God. Man’s problem is much deeper than mere intellectual ignorance or misunderstanding. Down to the very core of our being, we are opposed to God, naturally hostile toward Him. Apart from grace, we love darkness rather than light. Apart from grace, then, our wills are set against God. Paul points this out in Romans 8:7: “The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so.”

I find it most illuminating that Paul links together three facts in this verse:

“The mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God.” Why? “for [because] it does not subject itself to the law of God.” Why does it not subject itself? “for [because] it is not even able to do so.”

Note how hostility toward God—not subjecting oneself to the law of God—is attributed clearly to inability.

Since that is the case, we must be somehow brought to the point where we are not hostile toward God, where our minds are not set on the flesh. Only then will we subject ourselves to the law of God.

In addition, if it is true that man “CAN make a decision to believe or not believe,” to quote your own words, then you and I must be morally superior to all those wicked people out there who have never responded favorably to the gospel. After all, you and I have, by virtue of something good within us, said "yes" to Jesus, while all those others have said “no.” How do you account for this? Are we better than they?


First of all, the word “whosoever” does not indicate ability. The extension of the offer of the gospel toward all does not indicate natural power to respond favorably. The logic you seem to hold to goes like this:

1.God offers the gospel to all people.
2.Therefore, necessarily, all people must be able to respond.

But this is reasoning that is contrary to the Bible. We’ve already seen how the mind set on the flesh is not able to subject itself to the law of God. Nevertheless, God commands us to obey the law, and to do so perfectly at that. So, God commands something that we cannot do. Christ commanded the man with the withered hand to stretch it forth, yet naturally the man was unable to do so, the hand being shriveled. Nevertheless, contrary to what we would expect, he tells the man to do that which he cannot do. In another place, Christ commanded the man who was a paralytic to “Get up, take your mat and go home” (Mt. 9:6).

You also wrote: “God's grace is extended to all. Christ died for all mankind. Christ died for the world.”

Let's look at the possibilities and see if this idea really stands up:

1. Christ died for some of the sins of some men.
2. Christ died for some of the sins of all men.
3. Christ died for all the sins of all men.
4. Christ died for all the sins of some men.

If you can think of any other possibility, please add it. Otherwise, those are the possibilities regarding the extent of the atonement. Let's look at each in turn:

1. Christ died for some of the sins of some men. If this were true, nobody could be saved, since not all the sins have been atoned for.

2. Christ died for some of the sins of all men. Like #1, if this were true, nobody could be saved since it is only a partial atonement.

3. Christ died for all the sins of all men. If this were true, then everyone would be saved--every single person who has ever lived. This, however, cannot be the case, since we know that many will be in hell. You may say, "They go to hell because they refuse to believe in Christ." But isn't unbelief also a sin for which Christ died? If so, why should that sin keep them out of heaven any more than any other?

4. Christ died for all the sins of some men. If this were true, then complete salvation through a perfect atonement is guaranteed to some.

I might try to read this article, but in all honesty it would be better if you explained the points yourself in a summary fashion.



You are speaking here of divine foreknowledge, but the problem with your view is that it doesn't go far enough. God not only foreknows but also predestines. In fact, since God is sovereign, we could say that he foreknows because he predestines. He knows with complete certainty who will come to Christ because he predetermined that they will be conformed to the image of Christ. These two aspects are brought out in Romans 8:29-30 (NASB):

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified."

The Greek word for "predestined" is "proorisen," which means "marked out beforehand," "designated beforehand," or "foreordained." It is the same word in Acts 4:28: "to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose predestined to occur." It cannot mean the same as "foreknew" because Paul precedes the verb with the adverb "also," indicating that this is done in addition to the foreknowing. Therefore, it's wrong to say that God only foreknows who will respond to the gospel, passively sitting back and waiting for spiritually dead people to respond favorably to the gospel.

I’d also like to point out something else about the Romans 8 passage. Note that Paul says that those who are predestined are called. There is nobody who has been predestined who will not be called. That creates two possibilities before us:

1.God predestined all, and so he calls all.
2.God predestined some, and so he calls some.

It cannot be #1, since, again, that would indicate universalism, that all will be saved, but it is altogether plain from Scripture that this will not be the case. The truth must be #2, then.

He rejects God's offer of salvation because that is what his corrupt will constrains him to do. He can do nothing else because that is the limitation of his nature. He is not spiritually alive, and he loves darkness rather than light. He does not seek God. There is no fear of God before his eyes. Without being born again he cannot even see the kingdom of God, and without being drawn by God he cannot even come to Christ.


No, that is not what Paul said in that text. He said—and I am including the previous verse for contextual clarity--“13But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth. 14He called you to this through our gospel, that you might share in the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Note that God chose the Thessalonian believers for salvation. He then called them through the gospel. The question again arises: Does God do this for all alike? If he does, then all will be saved. But God’s word denies that possibility.



Yes, the Holy Spirit gives understanding and conviction of sin, but your view fails to take into account, as I pointed out above, that man needs more than a change of understanding in order to submit to God. Another problem with your theology is that, when considering it in light of the Romans 8 text, even though God has predestined those whom he foreknew to be conformed to the image of Christ, it is still possible--by their "sovereign" human will--to thwart that predestination as well as the very calling that is tied to that predestination.



What we are talking about is the natural man in his current state, not the state of Adam before the fall. There is a vast difference between the two. Bringing up Adam's choice in the garden, then, accomplishes nothing here.

I have not seen any scripture that shows that man is able to seek God. In fact, what we see is the exact opposite: Man’s mind is set on the flesh and therefore unable to subject itself to the law of God.

Furthermore, I disagree with your idea that man’s spiritual death is “separation from God in time.” That is not what Paul wrote. He described the spiritual death as death “in your trespasses and sins” (Eph. 2:1) and death “in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh” (Col. 2:13).

"once he has come to the point of comprehending the existence of a supreme being"? Paul made it clear that everyone already knows that a supreme being exists through what has been made, yet all reject this knowledge and suppress the truth.

In addition, your take on this is confusing. Although you acknowledge that man is spiritually dead, you go on to say that man can make a decision once he has the knowledge that a supreme being exists. So, if I read you right, you believe that man's spiritual death can be overcome by his knowledge of the existence of God. Thus, by your lights, man can be made alive spiritually simply by his knowledge. That, however, is contrary to what scripture teaches quite plainly:

"But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),..." (Eph. 2:4-5, NASB)

Who made us alive? God did.

"When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions." (Col. 2:13, NASB)

God made us alive, not our knowledge of his existence.

Now maybe I've misread you. If so, please clarify.

I believe from our view point we see ourselve as having free will, but, if God created everything doesn't that include our will?..We are born under bondage to the Devil and sin and we do the will of our father, but when God rescues us from that we obtain a new will from our Father and do His bidding...

[Eusebius]

Originally Posted by mercy777

Romans 11:32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

James 1: 13When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. 15Then, after desire has conceived,(desiring your own will, not the will of God) it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
If your desire is for the things of God,(living by the Spirit) then there is no evil desire.
John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.
John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of your hearts, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder,
John 5:42
but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts.
Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

Romans 10:10
For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.
2 Corinthians 1:22 set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
Roman 5:5And hope does not disappoint us, because God has poured out his love into our hearts by the Holy Spirit, whom he has given us

I'm not sure by your quotes if you believe mankind has a will that is free from God's sovereignty or not.

What do you think of this:

Rom 11:32 For God locks up all together in stubbornness, that He should be merciful to all."

Do you think mankind is clever or stronger than God to unlock himself from the prison God locks them up in?

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

[Eusebius]

Richard, I really enjoyed most of your thoughts. You are right on on many things. It is just that this kind of stuck out what you wrote:

3. Christ died for all the sins of all men. If this were true, then everyone would be saved--every single person who has ever lived. This, however, cannot be the case, since we know that many will be in hell. You may say, "They go to hell because they refuse to believe in Christ." But isn't unbelief also a sin for which Christ died? If so, why should that sin keep them out of heaven any more than any other?

It is not a case of "if this is true" but a case that it is true. Not only did Christ die for all the sins of all mankind, He gave Himself a ransom for all mankind (not all sorts of men as the J.W.'s believe) and based upon that ransoming, "God will have all mankind to be saved" (1 Tim.2:4-6).

You say that "many will be in hell" but what "hell" are you talking about? Sheol? Gehenna? Hades? The second death? There is no doubt in my mind that some people will find themselves in these places or states. But does this disprove God will save all? Hardly.

Christians are judged in this life so as not be be judged or condemned with the world (cf 1 Cor.11:32). Does this prove the Corinthians and all Christians who receive adversitive judgment will not later be saved? No. They will be saved. Likewise, humans who receive adversitive judgment in the future does not disprove that they will be saved for Christ ransomed them just as much as He did believer.

[Jremy]

Originally Posted by Richard1965

I believe from our view point we see ourselve as having free will, but, if God created everything doesn't that include our will?

I would say so.

..We are born under bondage to the Devil and sin and we do the will of our father, but when God rescues us from that we obtain a new will from our Father and do His bidding...

This all sounds correct to me. As you correctly pointed out, we have a will. It is damaged and marred, though, so that all we desire (will) is to run from God. When a person is born again, he receives new desires, desires to obey God and to follow Christ. This is why decisional regeneration is so ludicrous: How could a person "make the decision" to receive Christ when the only will they have is to decide to rebel against God?