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View Poll Results: Does God desire all people to be saved?
Yes 30 90.91%
No 3 9.09%
Voters: 33. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-20-2010, 11:42 AM
 
Location: Indianapolis
4,323 posts, read 6,005,097 times
Reputation: 677

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajuncajun View Post
Forgive my attempt to dumb down my comments to ease its understanding. I was trying to say that God's desire for all to be saved is linked to His standards before the fall of man. That desire didn't go away when Adam sinned. He created Adam in a sinless realm and Adam was able to fellowship with God. When Adam sinned and was cast out of Eden God's desire for man to remain in fellowship with Him still remained (hence, God's desire if for all men to be saved (i.e. be in fellowship with Him)).

Now to make His Glory known God chose to save a remnant for Himself. By Grace before anyone did anything good or evil God elected some to salvation. This is His limited atonement in the face of total depravity.

In summary, God desires the "world" to be as He created it initially (i.e. w/o sin). This what I mean when I say "God wants all to be saved." Being that we all have sinned and can't do anything on our own to save ourselves, God has chosen to save some of us. He saved us not based on any future decision that we would make or anything inherently good in any of us. He did not choose to save all of us.

That's the Word bro'.
God chooses all, however, it is us humans who do not choose God. God is all that is truth, beauty and goodness. To say that God chooses some goes against everything that God is. You can't be merciful and forgiving and then turn around and not forgive some. Your making God out to be like us when He is much more. He is absolute and all that is good. It's evil to think some won't be saved, even if they don't agree with you.

Would you turn away from one of your own children just because he/she didn't do what you asked? Nope. God won't either. He will wait throughout all eternity.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:26 PM
 
7,991 posts, read 12,227,954 times
Reputation: 4348
Default Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

Does God desire to save all mankind?

Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman

All people, including Hitler, Stalin, Sadam Hussein, etc?

Would June be one of those "et cetera's?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by rajuncajun View Post

God desires the "world" to be as He created it initially (i.e. w/o sin). This what I mean when I say "God wants all to be saved."

Being that we all have sinned and can't do anything on our own to save ourselves, God has chosen to save some of us. He saved us not based on any future decision that we would make or anything inherently good in any of us. He did not choose to save all of us.

'Et cetera' or otherwise, June's all the more confused.

First she hears that it's up to her to make a 'choice.'

Then she hears that it's up to God to decide.

~In the end, June just hopes to goodness that in the event God ever got around to saving her that in her overall confused state, she would at least know it! (Although June has the sneaking suspicion that if God had any intention of "saving June" that he'd have gotten around to her a long time ago.)

Perhaps he forgot.


But in the meantime....
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:31 PM
 
Location: New England
37,337 posts, read 28,122,238 times
Reputation: 2742
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajuncajun View Post
Forgive my attempt to dumb down my comments to ease its understanding. I was trying to say that God's desire for all to be saved is linked to His standards before the fall of man. That desire didn't go away when Adam sinned. He created Adam in a sinless realm and Adam was able to fellowship with God. When Adam sinned and was cast out of Eden God's desire for man to remain in fellowship with Him still remained (hence, God's desire if for all men to be saved (i.e. be in fellowship with Him)).

Now to make His Glory known God chose to save a remnant for Himself. By Grace before anyone did anything good or evil God elected some to salvation. This is His limited atonement in the face of total depravity.

In summary, God desires the "world" to be as He created it initially (i.e. w/o sin). This what I mean when I say "God wants all to be saved." Being that we all have sinned and can't do anything on our own to save ourselves, God has chosen to save some of us. He saved us not based on any future decision that we would make or anything inherently good in any of us. He did not choose to save all of us.

That's the Word bro'.
You are still using the same sentiment as your secular example . Do you agree if i being evil know how to be good in a situation where if it's at all possible that i could save all i would , how much more would your heavenly father do so ?.

It's amazing how we think that God who we know does everything in abundance , pressed down shaken together and running over, everything He did through his son, if recorded the world could not contain the books ,yet when it comes to salvation He who is Mighty to save can and will only save a few .(Is it any wonder the gospel is mocked )

Last edited by pcamps; 01-20-2010 at 12:50 PM..
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:37 PM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,092,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
Would June be one of those "et cetera's?"
LOL well June would be included in "all people" wouldn't she? Unless you are one of those who thinks "all people" does not include all people.

Quote:
'Et cetera' or otherwise, June's all the more confused.

First she hears that it's up to her to make a 'choice.'

Then she hears that it's up to God to decide.

~In the end, June just hopes to goodness that in the event God ever got around to saving her that in her overall confused state, she would at least know it! (Although June has the sneaking suspicion that if God had any intention of "saving June" that he'd have gotten around to her a long time ago.)

Perhaps he forgot.


But in the meantime....
I don't think God forgot, you should be scheduled in the future sometime...

BTW Did you vote in the poll? Thanks...
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:49 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 8,724,831 times
Reputation: 913
Quote:
Originally Posted by rajuncajun View Post
FWIW, I am reformed in my world view (i.e. Calvinist if you must put me in a box). I believe the answer to your question is "Yes" based on my comment y-day.

I do however believe that Jesus did not die for everybody as he died for all those that God gave Him.
So then what does this mean ...

1 Jo 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


The bible is very Clear that Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, not only for the sins of believers.

And what about ...

1 tim 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
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Old 01-20-2010, 12:58 PM
 
7,991 posts, read 12,227,954 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post

June would be included in "all people" wouldn't she? Unnless you are one of those who think "all people" does not include all people.
June isn't exactly sure. It's dependent upon who you ask....


Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman

I don't think God forgot, you should be scheduled in the future sometime.

What!?

June's been "wait listed!?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by logoman

BTW Did you vote in the poll?

You're kidding, right?
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:06 PM
 
6,657 posts, read 8,092,408 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by june 7th View Post
June isn't exactly sure. It's dependent upon who you ask....
Wait, your not one of these people that likes to change the english language? "All people"? What do you mean by "all", and what do you mean by "people"?


Quote:

What!?

June's been "wait listed!?"
Sorry, you'll have to take it up with God.



Quote:
You're kidding, right?

Umm, yeah I guess I should have had a 3rd option "Don't know/don't care/NA".... never mind...
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Old 01-20-2010, 01:35 PM
 
17,966 posts, read 15,896,911 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rajuncajun View Post
Well, it's not so much as what I believe as it is what the Bible says. My focus is on the big picture that God is pure love. There is no hint of evil in Him. God does not take pleasure in death or evil. God is also just (a character of God that some people gloss over). The wages of sin is death and will always be death. Being that He is just and He chose to save for Himself a remnant is beyond my comprehension. There is no one that deserves to enter eternal fellowship with God b/c all have sinned.

So to answer your question, no, I do not think that it is double-minded of God at all. I think it is God being God. Who am I to question what God does? How can I, the created, question what God, the Creator, chooses to do? If He decides to save some that is totally within His right as God to do so no matter how "double-minded" I think He is.
Dear rajuncajun, thanks for giving your ideas on this.

I am curious, though, what you do with this:

"God is the Saviour of all humans, especially them that believe" (1 Tim.4:10).

Let us exchange "humans" for "just the believers" as the Calvinist and Jehovah's Witness would have us take it and see if it makes sense:

"God is the Saviour of "just the believers, especially them that believe." Does this make sense to you?

It seems to me that Paul is writing to a believer, Timothy, to inform him of what God is not only going to do with all mankind (lit. "all humans") but with the believer as well in 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10.

And as the brother earlier point out: "1 Jo 2:2
"He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world." Now if we re-write this verse to accord with Calvinistic theology does it make sense: "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of all believers"?

Does that really make sense to you? I won't come down hard on you like I do sciotamicks for your reply. At least I'll try not to
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Old 01-20-2010, 10:32 PM
 
51 posts, read 98,196 times
Reputation: 28
OK, there have been a number of specific questions asked and I don't have time to address all of them. Let me ascend to 10,000ft so I can paint a broader picture. I don't think that the Bible is in conflict with itself as God is not a God of confusion and all Scripture is God breathed. That being said there are a number of verses in the Bible (not taken out of context) that teach of a limited atonement. These verses are not in conflict with the other verses that speak about all, everyone, all men, etc.

In all of these discussions we fail to mention the role of Satan. The reason one does not believe is not b/c they are neutrally rejecting the Gospel. The Bible tells us that Satan has blinded the mind of the unbeliever so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ. We are all born with a bent toward evil b/c Satan is our father.

For an individual to accept the gospel he/she would have to win the battle with Satan first. The Bible shows us that in and of ourselves we are powerless against Satan. Thus, one has to be born again and experience the new birth. Once the new birth takes place and God is our father we can then truly accept the Gospel. The new birth has to happen first or else we are still under the control of the devil and we will still be blind to the Gospel.

The result of the new birth, which is salvation, is unstoppable. The purpose that one is born again is so that they can be saved. There is no neutrality. Either your father is the devil or your Father is God. Man is powerless to fight a spiritual battle. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

If one wants to think that they won the spiritual battle on their own and defeated Satan forcing him to take the blinders off then so be it. I'm not that prideful. Scripture tells me that my salvation came b/c Jesus won the spiritual battle on my behalf, gave me a new birth, and removed the blinders from my eyes allowing me to accept the Gospel.

One can deduce (which is consistent with Scripture) that Jesus did/does not do this for everybody b/c not everybody will be saved. If he did then all would be saved.

Sometimes when the Bible mentions all, everybody, etc. it refers to all groups of people to let the reader know that His salvation is available to all groups of people w/o distinction and not just the Jews. This was important in Paul's time b/c some super-apostles were still preaching that salvation was only for the Jews forcing both Jews and Gentiles to revert back to legalism.

Be free.....
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Old 01-20-2010, 11:13 PM
 
193 posts, read 288,155 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
So then what does this mean ...

1 Jo 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.


The bible is very Clear that Jesus died for the sin of the whole world, not only for the sins of believers.

And what about ...

1 tim 4:10
For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
Amen!
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