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Romans 11:30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to futility [vanity], not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
God subjected the creation to vanity. God bound all men over do disobedience.
What is vanity and disobedience? They both lead to sin.
If God did not intend for us to sin, why did He subject us to vanity and disobedience?
quote from Fundamentalist:Clearly, God's will is not always done.
So Jesus taught the disciples to pray in vain
you know, Mt 6:10 - Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
God can ordain something different than what He desires.
What God wants
(2 Pet. 3:9)
"The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance,"
(Luke 14:23)
"And the master said to the slave, ‘Go out into the highways and along the hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled,"
What God arranges
(Mark 4:11-12).
"And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven,"
(2 Thess. 2:11)
"And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false,"
Does God desire pain and suffering in the world? The obvious answer is no. God created Adam and Eve and put them in a perfect world without pain, without suffering, and without loss and yet the world is full of it.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 01-21-2010 at 07:54 AM..
You are dancing around the obvious Fundy in an attempt to stay "politically" correct (within the Christian norm).
First you state "You don't understand scripture if you think God intends us to sin".
Then you say the above.
Quit playing both sides of the field.
what you fail to understand is that scripture has paradoxes. I only say what I see. I do not practice bad theology by filling in the blanks. If you see gaps or contradictions in my answers or that I am taking both sides of the field which I might add atheist accuse us of doing the same, oh well I can not explain the unexplainable.
God wants all to repent yet He deludes; God fully man yet He's fully God and scripture is full of these "contradictions". Maybe you should go to church and stop being an arm chair theologian thinking you actually understand scripture on your own. Put yourself under a good teacher.
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 01-21-2010 at 07:22 AM..
It's our view that God uses the actions of man, and turns them to His desired end, right?
Your not understanding Elmer. I agree with your above statement but you can't use that one verse and then bypass every other verse in the bible to make the simplistic conclusion that all will be saved.
Your not understanding Elmer. I agree with your above statement but you can't use that one verse and then bypass every other verse in the bible to make the simplistic conclusion that all will be saved.
THIS IS BAD THEOLOGY!
The theology is not drawn from simple passages or texts, but from the experience and message of the cross - a message that isn't given from the pulpit today, sadly. As God burns out the carnal nature from his children through the application of the cross in our lives, we die; everything that our faith, strength and hope was built upon He tears down - if you've truly embraced the work of the cross, you'll know what I'm saying - and new life (His life) is the only thing left standing.
It's this realization that He kills to make alive - and that nothing is "too dead" that He can't breathe life into it - that makes the scriptures jump at you...my friend, He is God.
But until we see it experientially, it won't resonate with you.
That was referring to those who said God's will is not done.
It is critically important that we have a clear understanding of who God is, or the very foundation of our personal faith is built on sand.
God can desire all be saved, but not ordain that all are by making provision in His plan for their damnation. All I am saying is God is not bound by His desires.
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