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Old 01-21-2010, 03:25 PM
 
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"The Christian Satan pretty much seems to do whatever it wants despite Christian claims that it only does what God allows it to do."

What I said in my second post is implied by this statement. I admit this may not have been clear in my first post.

Yes, there is an internal contradiction in your first post. I should have picked up on it and asked for clarification.

It is not a false dichotomy at all. It is a fact that Jewish theology concerning the nature of satan and Christian theology concerning it are different.

This may very well be the case, but it is not the "difference" you defined in your OP, which set up a Gnostic concept of Satan against a Jewish one.

Which begs the question, if such differences between the "Christian concept of Satan" and the "Jewish concept of Satan" actually exist, what are they? And how are they relevant to the story of Job?

Compare what the Rabbis will tell you to what a Catholic priest, Methodist minister or a Southern Baptist preacher will tell you. One cannot be a servant of G-d in heaven (Judaism) and the other the Prince of Hell (Christianity) and still be the same entity. This cannot be ignored.

I'm afraid this does not answer the question I asked immediately above, nor can I see how this applies to Job. Whether Satan dwells in heaven (Judaism) or in Hell (Christianity), his role in Judaism, as you describe it, is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can be a meaningful choice. How is this really any different from the role he plays in Catholicism, where through tempting man into sin, he serves as a means by which man can freely choose good over evil? In other words, his attributes may be quite different in the two faiths (as you have cited), but his function, at least insofar as you describe it above, is actually quite similar.

In sum, you have failed to explain how the two "different concepts of Satan" have any bearing whatsoever on how one should interpret the story of Job. If you keep trying, I will keep reading.


Therefore, Christianity cannot be the natural progression from Judaism.

Now THAT is a total non sequiter/leap in logic which I am afraid I must vociferously reject. Catholicism and Judaism are extremely close--I have studied this topic for some time. But I do not wish to hijack this thread.
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:59 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DreamingSpires View Post
I'm afraid this does not answer the question I asked immediately above, nor can I see how this applies to Job. Whether Satan dwells in heaven (Judaism) or in Hell (Christianity), his role in Judaism, as you describe it, is to make choosing good over evil enough of a challenge so that it can be a meaningful choice. How is this really any different from the role he plays in Catholicism, where through tempting man into sin, he serves as a means by which man can freely choose good over evil? In other words, his attributes may be quite different in the two faiths (as you have cited), but his function, at least insofar as you describe it above, is actually quite similar.
Agreed on Satan's function in both faiths (doctrinally speaking)! However, the problem lies in his attributes as seen by the two faiths. Fundamentalist Christians in particular (these are the types of Christians that I have an argument with 99% of the time BTW), take the bible literally...word for word and base their theology upon that.

Now, if we see the words of Job as merely being a Jewish tale to teach moralistic and theological lessons, then whatever Satan is is irrelevant. Just for record, the Rabbis I have discussed this with describe it as being just that....a tale to teach a lesson. I haven't met one yet that believed it to have been a history. The priests would say basically the same thing when I went to Catholic School.

However, if we take the words of Job literally, then the attributes of Satan are very important indeed. When discussing Satan with most Fundamentalists (all in my experience anyway), Satan is the diabolical, evil fallen angel that is hell-bent (pun intended) on destroying god's creation and fighting against god with an intense hatred for him and man. So, if that is the case and one takes Job literally, then this is where the Jewish versus Christian view of Satan becomes a conundrum. Since Fundamentalists often use Job to "prove" their doctrines and theology especially concerning hell and the devil, then it actually undermines them when one understands the Jewish view of Satan.

If Satan is an obedient and willing servant of G-d (as Jews see him), then a large part of Christian belief cannot be said to be of Jewish origin. If the Jewish Satan is the correct one, The Book of Revelation, for example, is invalid (from a Fundamentalist viewpoint anyway -- growing up Catholic, the priests taught us that the events found in Revelation had already come and gone). If Satan is the willing and obedient servant of G-d, the there could have been no Fall or rebellion. Why we would we need to "saved" from the devil if it is indeed the willing and obedient servant of god? We merely must resist him and do right. If Satan resides in heaven with god, then there necessarily must be no hell and therefore no salvation is needed. Do you see the problem here?

Last edited by Fullback32; 01-21-2010 at 04:47 PM..
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:59 PM
 
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Again, this story was an attempt, using the theological understanding of THAT time, to try to explain the problem of "why does bad things happen to good, righteous people." As I pointed out, however, the story STILL has all kinds of problematic holes for the modern Christian. For the ancient Jew, it was easier to digest because satan, in their view, was simply an agent for god, sent to test Job. In later Jewish theology which carried over into Jewish Christianity and then into Gentilic Christianity, satan is his own man, with his own kingdom and minions, his own plans and his own will. He is directly opposed to god and man and there is no camping out with god in heaven, holding casual conversations about folks as he is found doing in the book of Job.

Last edited by InsaneInDaMembrane; 01-21-2010 at 04:24 PM..
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:37 PM
 
Location: Home of the best seafood
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So basically what I have learned is that Satan is an angel who is sent from heaven to test us to see if we really believe in God? So basically he is an assistant of Gods?
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:41 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
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This Book of the Bible shows us where our walk is with God in hard times,are we the type to blasphemy God when things aren't going well or do we have the patience of Job to put it in the Lord's hands knowing that He will provide.

Satan is definitely a force in this world and he wants to see bad things happen to us,things taken away so that eventually we will blame the Lord for our mishaps,this is the way he works and we have to keep our focus on the Lord and know that He wants the best for us.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:46 PM
 
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
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Originally Posted by lifesprecious09 View Post
So basically what I have learned is that Satan is an angel who is sent from heaven to test us to see if we really believe in God? So basically he is an assistant of Gods?
In Jewish thought...yes. But not to just believe, but also to obey.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Home of the best seafood
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but Jesus was a Jew...

Gosh this is all confusing.lol
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Jacksonville,Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesprecious09 View Post
but Jesus was a Jew...

Gosh this is all confusing.lol
Having read Job ,what is your slant on it ?
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:25 PM
 
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The book of Job shows god and satan working together (a strange idea in Christian theology). God is the one who directs satan's attention to Job in bragging fashion. Satan issues a challenge and god falls for it and allows satan to pulverize Job within an inch of madness JUST to prove a point.

It would disturbing if it was true.

Oh, can anyone tell me who was around to record this story? Who was up in heaven listening in on this conversation? That alone should be a big FAT hint that this is nothing more than a "once upon a time" story.
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Home of the best seafood
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Originally Posted by noland123 View Post
Having read Job ,what is your slant on it ?
Pretty much what Queen Lisa stated on the 1st page..He used Job as an example of how bad things happened to good people, he took away everything from Job and Job was rewarded times as much for having faith in God during his hardship.
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