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Old 01-21-2010, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Colorado
305 posts, read 205,273 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
LOL ok if you think so.

To get back on topic:

Forgive them for they know not what they do indeed.

Why don't you think this applies to certain people?

Does God not forgive some people?
Do all people forgive themselves - even after recieving Grace?
Is there a process to being forgiven?
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:01 PM
 
1,565 posts, read 943,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
because your understanding of scripture is out there. Find a good teacher.
Fundy: You said that only an infinite punishment can satisfy an infinite God.

1. Was the punishment finite in the example i gave?
2. Was God infinite?
3. Did that punishment result in "so will I make my fury toward thee rest." ?
4. Does the word "so" mean "thus"?

Which part of this is so "out there"?
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:03 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,969,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoneSentinel View Post
Do all people forgive themselves - even after recieving Grace?
Is there a process to being forgiven?
It may take a while in some cases. There is a process of healing that needs to take place.

Interestingly enough the meaning of salvation/savior can also have a meaning of "healing".
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:04 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,969,811 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Fundy: You said that only an infinite punishment can satisfy an infinite God.

1. Was the punishment finite in the example i gave?
2. Was God infinite?
3. Did that punishment result in "so will I make my fury toward thee rest." ?
4. Does the word "so" mean "thus"?

Which part of this is so "out there"?


Brilliant TKC! Apparently God can be satisifed by finite punishment!
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:04 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,806,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Fundy: You said that only an infinite punishment can satisfy an infinite God.

1. Was the punishment finite in the example i gave?
2. Was God infinite?
3. Did that punishment result in "so will I make my fury toward thee rest." ?
4. Does the word "so" mean "thus"?

Which part of this is so "out there"?
The example you gave is not a good parallel to the judgment of God. You ignore the fact that under the Jewish law she and mate should be stoned, even Moses carried through with these punishments was Moses wrong??????
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:09 PM
 
Location: RI
19,371 posts, read 9,511,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
It seems the thread has already diverged off topic. I wanted to narrow in on this specific concept of justice... how can justice be achieved if the punishment never ends? By definition, justice is not fully accomplished until both the offender has paid the last penny and the victim is compensated and reconciled. If the punishment of the offender never ends, then justice is never fully accomplished!

Think about it please.
When we come to understand the heart of God , we can never attribute punishment without end to him, for as you say justice would never be accomplished.


The reason he is attributed with doing such a thing can solely lie at the feet of christians who have tried figuring God out by a volume of 66 books with a carnal mind.
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Old 01-21-2010, 02:15 PM
 
1,565 posts, read 943,377 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
The example you gave is not a good parallel to the judgment of God.

God calls it a judgment from God.
  • Ezekiel 16:38 And I will judge thee, as women that break wedlock and shed blood are judged; and I will give thee blood in fury and jealousy
Quote:
You ignore the fact that under the law she should be stoned, even Moses carried through with these punishments was Moses wrong??????
Moses wasn't wrong, but the laws given were not instructions for the righteous in how to be righteous. Jesus example was instruction for the righteous.

Suppose I was there as a Jew (but knowing what I know now based on this example) and no one else was there but me and the woman. I have to make a choice.
1. Stone her according to the law of Moses
2. Do what Jesus did

I can not do both can I?
I want to do what is righeous.
What should I do?

This is how I think about it.
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Old 01-21-2010, 03:16 PM
 
696 posts, read 516,991 times
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To discount infinite penalty is to proclaim God finite. Only man is finite. When dealing with infinity one must see what an Infinite God sees not a finite man. Either way, it is not the penalty that is the focus, but the infinite holiness of God that demands no sin in His sight and thus the penalty. It is error to think otherwise.
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Old 01-21-2010, 04:11 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,452,336 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
To discount infinite penalty is to proclaim God finite. Only man is finite. When dealing with infinity one must see what an Infinite God sees not a finite man. Either way, it is not the penalty that is the focus, but the infinite holiness of God that demands no sin in His sight and thus the penalty. It is error to think otherwise.

Where in the bible does it say that the penalty for sin must be eternal because God is eternal to begin with?

Do you believe god will restore Israel? Was Gods judgment towards israel infinite every time he judged them and then restored them?

the fact is all every bit of the doctrine of eternal torment is based on the mistranslation of the word aion and its adjective forms aionios and aionion. If those words are translated as they should be then the whole doctrine of eternal torment falls apart. even bein translated as they are, that i s to say eternal or ever lasting or for ever and ever, the interpretation of those scriptures does not necessarily have to be eternal torment. The fact that the interpretation of them is traditionally eternal torment actually causes so many contradictions within the scriptures that the bible becomes a confusing mess. And the last bastion of the argument of eternal torment loies in the misinterpretation of the fact that "Gods ways are not mans ways". We as Christians are supposed to be coming into the understanding of Gods ways and overcoming the carnal understanding of natural mans ways, but fundamentalists fall back on this idea as if we are not able to come to understand the ways of God. This of course goes against the scriptures which teach that we are in fact being conformed to the mind of Christ and in so doing we are coming into the understanding of Gods ways. The ways of natural carnal man that cannot comprehend the ways of God is violence and condemnation and fear and hate and extortion. The ways of God are above the ways of Carnal men who count the things and ways of god foolishness. The ways of God are love and forgiveness and grace and understanding and patience and peace etc ... But Traditional Christianity teaches that God is infinitely angry and violent and vengeful etc. Basically traditional Christianity teaches that the only difference between Gods ways and mans ways is that Gods ways are infinitely more of the same ways of man. Man is finitely violent and can only torment and condemn other men until death. But God can infinitely condemn men after death and and torment endlessly without the hope even of death.

The fact is the traditional teachings about God are an abomination greater than anything imagined by men.
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Old 01-26-2010, 05:16 PM
 
Location: Colorado
305 posts, read 205,273 times
Reputation: 47
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73 View Post
To discount infinite penalty is to proclaim God finite. Only man is finite. When dealing with infinity one must see what an Infinite God sees not a finite man. Either way, it is not the penalty that is the focus, but the infinite holiness of God that demands no sin in His sight and thus the penalty. It is error to think otherwise.
...but if you are equating his 'infinite holiness' to the demand of 'no sin in His sight and thus the penalty', then you seem to limit His mercy...
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