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A long time ago I was chasing drug runners with my unit I was attached to. We had to wait for thier ship to cross a certain point in the pacific ocean before we could board the ship and search it. Of course we had an informant who confirmed the ship we were boarding was full of drugs heading for the United States. The reason we approached this ship under stealth is the drug runners quite often would scuttle thier vessel and the evidence so they could not be accused. Thus we approached the ship in complete darkness.
Of course they didn't get the chance to scuttle their ship. We boarded it and for three days searched the ship, but found nothing. The captain of the ship started to complain. However, they made a fateful mistake. One of the crew made a cell phone call intercepted declaring the cargo intact. Guess what the next day after defueling and dewatering the boat the drugs were found in a tank inside a tank.
The crew was arrested and the ship towed to port. Of course we had to give them a constitutional in sunlight, and did you know what one of them tried to do? With no land in sight he attempted to jump over the side of the boat. He wanted to die.
No of course this doesnt factor God into it, but until you can prove to me that there are those who would just take their punishment your theory's hold no weight.
Or better yet how about my buddy's still serving. Who catch a terrorrist or enemy combatant, but then everyday have to protect themselves, because as soon as the prisnor sees a chance he either tries to kill his guard or escape.
In essence like many with your doctrine you claim one thing , but factor in nothing else. Mankind has never submitted to any yoke placed upon them willingly. You can claim this all you like. I have been in places and seen it not to be true. My friend confirm it.
I know of my own acceptance freely that I accepted Christ.
If you think your doctrine is true I suggest you go the Middle East and proclaim it. Islam is about as Universal as it gets. They in fact believe in Biblical hell and firmly believe everyone will be armtwisted into submission. Proclaim your truth and tell me how it stands.
The above is dealing with carnal men facing a carnal judgment according to men and the natural forms of justice which men provide for crimes against the state etc. ... One man is not able to change another mans heart and heal him of his wicked ways ... God is able to change any ones heart and heal their wicked ways. The judgments of God are for the very purpose teaching righteousness to the wicked, and to purify mankind so that they might serve God in truth. God does not inflict suffering on people simple for the heck of causing them to suffer as ig their suffering for suffering sake would accomplish anything but a twisted sense of justice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aschultz73
Again a scriptural falicy. If Christ came to die for all sins then he paid the price. How then would men pay a price Christ has already paid?
Christ died for sin, and the wages of sin is death not being punished with stripes or buy paying restitution yet getting to remain alive. When god judges those who receive many stripes and pay until they have paid in full their debt to Christ and to God for they are certainly indebted to him. However it is in order to teach them righteousness and to heal them that he chastises them in order to bring their minds into subjection under Christ so that God can be in all ...
I have answered you and yet you still cannot commit to a yes or no and you have the cheek to say i gave you a jungle gym answer lmao , you cannot make it up .
Why can you not humble yourself and admit that you would never have repented or had the ability to unless God led you or caused you to ?
Very unlike you not to want to carry it on as you love the last word and will argue until the cows come home.
Her response is quite clear. The problem is you are attempting to logically take the next step to prove your argument, which by your own admission you can not do.
As you claim God does you are trying to force her into making your choice. She clearly is stating He called me, but I freely accepted and could have easily declined what He offered.
In effect you are proving her point. You keep trying to twist her into accepting something of her own human free will she will not accept. This is the core difference between Chrisitanity and Universalism. You can not reconcile it.
The above is dealing with carnal men facing a carnal judgment according to men and the natural forms of justice which men provide for crimes against the state etc. ... One man is not able to change another mans heart and heal him of his wicked ways ... God is able to change any ones heart and heal their wicked ways. The judgments of God are for the very purpose teaching righteousness to the wicked, and to purify mankind so that they might serve God in truth. God does not inflict suffering on people simple for the heck of causing them to suffer as ig their suffering for suffering sake would accomplish anything but a twisted sense of justice.
Christ died for sin, and the wages of sin is death not being punished with stripes or buy paying restitution yet getting to remain alive. When god judges those who receive many stripes and pay until they have paid in full their debt to Christ and to God for they are certainly indebted to him. However it is in order to teach them righteousness and to heal them that he chastises them in order to bring their minds into subjection under Christ so that God can be in all ...
The clear response I expected. Again no where in the Bible can man pay any debt to a infinite God of thier own ability and thus the need for Christ. Again you are making it into something it is not.
You are correct Christ died for all sin. It is also clear man can not pay for his sin. It is also clear man thruout history does not accept any yoke placed upon them. If so we would already have a one world government, which even in this day people fight against.
What you fail to disprove continually is that man can accept an error. I would suggest you read some notes from prisoners posted online. You can easily find them from some of the most high security prisons in the US. These men look for "pen pals" of a sort. One of the most dominate themes is "I am not guilty". In short you are in a system that presumes innocence first and guilt second. You grew in it. This is why the USA is not a Christian country.
The Biblical system is guilt first with no presumption and a flat denial of innocence. God is holy, man is of sin, thus man can not be in the presence of God who is Holy lest he die. For this reason God hid Moses in a cleft, covered the opening with His hand and passed by. Of course you have stated much of the OT is myth and magical fruit so I would assume you discount it.
There is no debt man can pay. Christ never asked for someone to pay back to him what he freely paid. Christ who is God, only commands that one believes. It is fairly clear that there are those who will not believe.
Your attempt to use the word carnal is at best to discount an experience I have wholly experience in numerous situations. Pharoah himself faced the power of God and denied it. An Isrealite King faced the power of God and was told he would not die if he did as God instructed. How ironic this king was facing judgement. The king did not do what God said, and he died. But again you claim myth so you can not apply these.
And by your assumption one man can not change another's heart is in a way true. The truth is the man changed is not what he claimed to be in the first place. But we claim to see a change were actually known existed.
You see a twisted sense of judgement as many do, because you fail to see Christ's payment claiming that you do. There is not one thing that a man can do to pay Christ back for his sacrifice. Your statements imply that it can be done. If it is clearly called a free gift, what need of repayment?
I have answered you and yet you still cannot commit to a yes or no and you have the cheek to say i gave you a jungle gym answer lmao , you couldn't make it up .
Why can you not humble yourself and admit that you would never have repented or had the ability to unless God led you or caused you to ?
Very unlike you not to want to carry it on as you love the last word and will argue until the cows come home.
I answered you, you already said I answered you, but you are contradicting yourself by not say, why want you admit. What you are saying is you don't like my answer.
Yet you still lie.
Show me where you answered my question? Do you believe that a person can refuse at anytime to repent?
I will point your error out again and will continue to do so, to show your lies and deceit.
I ask you do you believe every repents before they die? You said I believe beyound the grave (not quoting exact word).
That is not answering my question. That does not tell me if you believe that all will repent before they die, or if some will repent before they die and the rest repent later. And yet you see your error but yet you have to much pride to admit not only that you are lying but yet my question remained unanswered up until another UR answered it.
Then my other question have yet to be unanswered. Do you think that a person could refuse to repent at anytime? May be this is to hard, do you think that God could come to a person and they not repent then, but yet God came to them again, and they repented at that time?
Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 01-29-2010 at 04:25 PM..
Her response is quite clear. The problem is you are attempting to logically take the next step to prove your argument, which by your own admission you can not do.
As you claim God does you are trying to force her into making your choice. She clearly is stating He called me, but I freely accepted and could have easily declined what He offered.
In effect you are proving her point. You keep trying to twist her into accepting something of her own human free will she will not accept. This is the core difference between Chrisitanity and Universalism. You can not reconcile it.
I am not trying to force her into anything , i am trying to get a yes or no answer out of her . I am not asking her whether God lead her , i am saying it's not within a carnal aliented minded man to find repentance within himself .
As i have stated he's the author and finisher of our faith , it began with him and will end with him , he will complete that which he started in us , he works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
How possibly can a man whose mind is at emnity with God repent unless God does something miraculous within him ,my testimony is it's a miracle that i believed, repented and now belong to him and i put the whole thing down to him .
but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will neverthirst. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into everlasting life.â€
Who is thirsty for the water of life? Not the saved, we already have it.
I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!†And let him who hears say, “Come!†And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely...
This is after the judgement.
Also:
And again He said, “To what shall I liken the kingdom of God? It is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was allleavened.â€
Another parable He spoke to them: “The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened.â€
LOL, I said show me scripture that says after the Judgement of the wicked, they are being brought into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Whoever desires, is an invitation to whoever takes the water. Yet you have not shown me anything but what I said was and would happen.
I answered you, you already said I answered you, but you are contradicting yourself by not say, why want you admit. What you are saying is you don't like my answer.
Yet you still lie.
Show me where you answered my question? Do you believe that a person can refuse at anytime to repent?
I will point your error out again and will continue to do so, to show your lies and deceit.
I ask you do you believe every repents before they die? You said I believe beyound the grave (quoting exact word).
That is not answering my question. That does not tell me if you believe that all will repent before they die, or if some will repent before they die and the rest repent later. And yet you see your error but yet you have to much pride to admit not only that you are lying but yet my question remained unanswered up until another UR answered it.
Then my other question have yet to be unanswered. Do you think that a person could refuse to repent at anytime? May be this is to hard, do you think that God could come to a person and they not repent then, but yet God came to them again, and they repented at that time?
Miss Shawn it's unbelievable how you so easily call people a liar .
You have not directly answered with a yes or no , and like i said from what you are posting i can only gather that you believe you could repent on your own accord .
I did not realize you was asking me another question , your posts are that long winded if i have read beyond 2 paragraphs that is one to many . No one will ever repent until God has opened their eyes to do so . I am not sure if this answers you question has i really do not understand the question apart from you are trying to make the point that you in your carnal minded state could have had the ability to repent , when that is an impossibility , it took the miracle working power of God to cause us at the very least to respond to him .
The clear response I expected. Again no where in the Bible can man pay any debt to a infinite God of thier own ability and thus the need for Christ. Again you are making it into something it is not.
You are correct Christ died for all sin. It is also clear man can not pay for his sin. It is also clear man thruout history does not accept any yoke placed upon them. If so we would already have a one world government, which even in this day people fight against.
What you fail to disprove continually is that man can accept an error. I would suggest you read some notes from prisoners posted online. You can easily find them from some of the most high security prisons in the US. These men look for "pen pals" of a sort. One of the most dominate themes is "I am not guilty". In short you are in a system that presumes innocence first and guilt second. You grew in it. This is why the USA is not a Christian country.
The Biblical system is guilt first with no presumption and a flat denial of innocence. God is holy, man is of sin, thus man can not be in the presence of God who is Holy lest he die. For this reason God hid Moses in a cleft, covered the opening with His hand and passed by. Of course you have stated much of the OT is myth and magical fruit so I would assume you discount it.
There is no debt man can pay. Christ never asked for someone to pay back to him what he freely paid. Christ who is God, only commands that one believes. It is fairly clear that there are those who will not believe.
Your attempt to use the word carnal is at best to discount an experience I have wholly experience in numerous situations. Pharoah himself faced the power of God and denied it. An Isrealite King faced the power of God and was told he would not die if he did as God instructed. How ironic this king was facing judgement. The king did not do what God said, and he died. But again you claim myth so you can not apply these.
And by your assumption one man can not change another's heart is in a way true. The truth is the man changed is not what he claimed to be in the first place. But we claim to see a change were actually known existed.
You see a twisted sense of judgement as many do, because you fail to see Christ's payment claiming that you do. There is not one thing that a man can do to pay Christ back for his sacrifice. Your statements imply that it can be done. If it is clearly called a free gift, what need of repayment?
Exactly! So if there is no repayment necessary why separate the godly from the ungodly? You say it is because they don't believe yet didn't Christ state that all men sinned not just the ungodly? Did Christ directly deal with the ungodly or the sinner? or both?
Romans 5:6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Even Paul seems to state that his unbelief was not counted against him.
1 Timothy 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
No repayment, all are sinners, Christ died for the ungodly, belief not necessarily required but preferred.... Isn't that what the bible says?
Her response is quite clear. The problem is you are attempting to logically take the next step to prove your argument, which by your own admission you can not do.
As you claim God does you are trying to force her into making your choice. She clearly is stating He called me, but I freely accepted and could have easily declined what He offered.
In effect you are proving her point. You keep trying to twist her into accepting something of her own human free will she will not accept. This is the core difference between Chrisitanity and Universalism. You can not reconcile it.
Thank you. I know someone can understand what I am saying.
God lead me and you to repent, God didn't force up, beat up, smack us, He lead us, we then made the choice to turn away from our sin.
God leads everyone to repent but everyone will not repent as scripture shows.
Miss Shawn it's unbelievable how you so easily call people a liar .
You have not directly answered with a yes or no , and like i said from what you are posting i can only gather that you believe you could repent on your own accord .
And yet you still didn't answer my question? My question is so clear, you can't stand to accept. God didn't force me, NO, God lead me, Yes, I repented and turned from my sin which was my choice. God didn't make me repent, He lead me. This is very clear, but yet you just don't want to take my answer.
Prove me wrong, if I am lying prove me wrong. God leads everyone, everyone does not repent.
Are you ever going to answer my question? Do you think that a person could refuse to repent at anytime? Maybe this is to hard, do you think that God could come to a person and they not repent then, but yet God came to them again, and they repented at that time?
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