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Do you feel sorry for Judas, since you believe he was destined to go to hell? He didn't even have a chance...
Oh wait, you're not a Calvinist are you Raelyn?
He wasn't destined to hell but had a choice like everyone else. It is just that Jesus knew he would do that because Jesus was God and knows everything. Oh boy hopefully those on the forum that don't believe in the Diety of God will be on this one now.
Once again my relationship has no name.. I am just a Believer of Christ. I know nothing about a Calvinist but it is apparent that you do? And no I don't feel sorry for Judas..
Yes He can save the lost... He most certainly can but not every man wants to be saved. Not everyone chooses to follow Jesus and not everyone even desires to go to heaven... There are those that want to go to hell. Those that are Satan worshippers, ect.. People don't even want God nor do they chose to believe in Him.
God gives man free-will legoMan. He doesn't force anyone to chose Him.. Yes.. most certainly true everyone will acknowledge and know that Jesus is Lord because there will be no mistake, no denying His Power. He will truly make Himself known in the end. But the Bible says that the demons believe and shudder but they are not saved.
Tell me, why are you so bent on this belief? What are you afraid of? Are you holding on to something that you should let go? Why this belief that everyone will be saved? Just curious. It doesn't make any sense let alone the total Biblical inaccurancy of it.
For some reason I now have a desire to share the truth as I know it. When God reveals His love to you, you cannot hide it. It is glorious and wonderful, and it saddens me to see people on this forum who do not understand, thinking that eternal torment is somehow biblical. I used to believe it myself.
I'll ask you some questions that were always difficult for me to understand.
Have you ever thought about a human being burned in fire for eternity? How about just for a day? Picture your brother surrounded in flames, in agony. If you love him, could you sit by and not do everything in your power to remove him from that torment? Would you expect any less from God? Why would God even create such a place - why would God create an eternal torture chamber? Could such a God even be loving?
Have you actually thought about the enormity of these questions before? Eternal torture in fire is the sickest thing that man can imagine. It goes on FOREVER. Imagine being burned by a stove on your hand. It hurts. Now imagine that pain over your whole body, not just for a few seconds, but for 100 years.
Now picture all the grains of sand on all the beaches in the world. Each grain of sand has billions of atoms in it. If each atom represented a 100 years, imagine going through all these atoms in all the grains of sand - billions and billions of 100s of years. Imagine how long that would take, all the while being burned all over your whole body. Does that sound like a fair and just punishment?
But you know what? This punishment I just described is NOTHING compared to eternity, because it ENDS. And people call being burned forever in fire "just". Its unbelievable if you think about it.
This is the sickest doctrine man come up with. And it horribly maligns the character of God. God loves you, but He's going to burn your great grandma in fire FOREVER.
Think about it. Please. Could you be happy in heaven knowing your great grandma is burning in fire forever? Does it bother you in the least? Will you still love your great grandma knowing God the Father is burning her for eternity? Will you still love God knowing the immense pain and suffering that she is going through for eternity?
Or do you think its simply justice? You really think "free-will" is the excuse? God won't pull someone from infinite torture because He respects their "free-will"? And even more bizarre, you actually think someone would want to be tortured in fire forever?
Think about this. Pray about it. God is bigger than you know.
I don't know what bible version you are using, but this is what mine says:
Phil 3:19Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.
"destruction" is quite different than "eternal misery". Perhaps it is your bible translation that is FALSE teaching and causing others to stumble?
Destruction;
quote
Perish (622) APOLLUMI from Apo=away from or wholly+olethros=state of utter ruin<>ollumi=to destroy utterly BUT NOT CAUSED TO CEASE TO EXIST. (Emphasis mine)
Apollumi as it relates to man, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The Gospel promises ever lasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence.)
Apollumi then has the basic meanng of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for it's intended purpose.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 13:42,50)
unquote
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 25:41 'Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
For some reason I now have a desire to share the truth as I know it. When God reveals His love to you, you cannot hide it. It is glorious and wonderful, and it saddens me to see people on this forum who do not understand, thinking that eternal torment is somehow biblical. I used to believe it myself.
I'll ask you some questions that were always difficult for me to understand.
Have you ever thought about a human being burned in fire for eternity? How about just for a day? Picture your brother surrounded in flames, in agony. If you love him, could you sit by and not do everything in your power to remove him from that torment? Would you expect any less from God? Why would God even create such a place - why would God create an eternal torture chamber? Could such a God even be loving?
Have you actually thought about the enormity of these questions before? Eternal torture in fire is the sickest thing that man can imagine. It goes on FOREVER. Imagine being burned by a stove on your hand. It hurts. Now imagine that pain over your whole body, not just for a few seconds, but for 100 years.
Now picture all the grains of sand on all the beaches in the world. Each grain of sand has billions of atoms in it. If each atom represented a 100 years, imagine going through all these atoms in all the grains of sand - billions and billions of 100s of years. Imagine how long that would take, all the while being burned all over your whole body. Does that sound like a fair and just punishment?
But you know what? This punishment I just described is NOTHING compared to eternity, because it ENDS. And people call being burned forever in fire "just". Its unbelievable if you think about it.
This is the sickest doctrine man come up with. And it horribly maligns the character of God. God loves you, but He's going to burn your great grandma in fire FOREVER.
Think about it. Please. Could you be happy in heaven knowing your great grandma is burning in fire forever? Does it bother you in the least? Will you still love your great grandma knowing God the Father is burning her for eternity? Will you still love God knowing the immense pain and suffering that she is going through for eternity?
Or do you think its simply justice? You really think "free-will" is the excuse? God won't pull someone from infinite torture because He respects their "free-will"? And even more bizarre, you actually think someone would want to be tortured in fire forever?
Think about this. Pray about it. God is bigger than you know.
Probably the reason why you are sharing is to give me an understanding as to why you believe the way you believe and I appreciate the explanation and question, however consider this.
Just forget about the burning fire or the hell that you are talking about.
The Word Salvation is listed over three hundred times in the Bible. The word means: yeshuah, deliverance, save, security, victory. What on earth is Jesus saving us from if it isn't eternal seperation. The entire message of the gospel is about choices, consequences, rewards, spiritual battles, ect, etc... Your beliefs just don't make sense at all. We are being "saved" through giving our lives to Christ. Saved from what...
The bible is very clear when it says that we have free-will. What is the point of the message if we really don't have a choice in the end.. God might has well just created us to be robots..
Destruction;
quote
Perish (622) APOLLUMI from Apo=away from or wholly+olethros=state of utter ruin<>ollumi=to destroy utterly BUT NOT CAUSED TO CEASE TO EXIST. (Emphasis mine)
Apollumi as it relates to man, is not the loss of being per se, but is the loss of well being. It means to ruin so that the person (or thing) ruined can no longer serve the use for which he (it) was designed. To render useless. The Gospel promises ever lasting life for the one who believes. The failure to possess this life will result in utter ruin and eternal uselessness (but not a cessation of existence.)
Apollumi then has the basic meanng of describing that which is ruined and is no longer usable for it's intended purpose.
Apollumi is the term Jesus used to speak of those who are thrown into hell (Matt. 10:28): As He makes clear elsewhere, hell is not a place or state of nothingless or unconscious existence, as is the Hindu Nirvana but is the place of everlasting torment, the place of eternal death, where there will be ''weeping and gnashing of teeth (Mt. 13:42,50)
unquote
Revelation 20:10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Matthew 25:41 'Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.''
Thanks dear brother and join me with thy trusty Sword. I need a rest here for awhile.
Probably the reason why you are sharing is to give me an understanding as to why you believe the way you believe and I appreciate the explanation and question, however consider this.
Just forget about the burning fire or the hell that you are talking about.
The Word Salvation is listed over three hundred times in the Bible. The word means: yeshuah, deliverance, save, security, victory. What on earth is Jesus saving us from if it isn't eternal seperation. The entire message of the gospel is about choices, consequences, rewards, spiritual battles, ect, etc... Your beliefs just don't make sense at all. We are being "saved" through giving our lives to Christ. Saved from what...
Saved from sin and death of course. The wages of sin is death, NOT eternal torment or eternal separation. You go on about believing the bible, yet you cannot acknowledge this simple fact. Scripture says the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.
Quote:
The bible is very clear when it says that we have free-will. What is the point of the message if we really don't have a choice in the end.. God might has well just created us to be robots..
Actually the bible is very clear we do not free-will. The bible says we are CLAY. That's even lesser than a robot. Clay does not have free will. Clay does nothing by itself. "I can do nothing by myself"
Study to show thyself approved Raelyn...
Prov 20:24 A man's steps are directed by the LORD.
How then can anyone understand his own way?
jer 10:23 I know, O LORD, that a man's life is not his own; it is not for man to direct his steps.
Rom 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!
15 For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Romans 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
Destruction;
quote
Perish (622) APOLLUMI from Apo=away from or wholly+olethros=state of utter ruin<>ollumi=to destroy utterly BUT NOT CAUSED TO CEASE TO EXIST. (Emphasis mine)
I agree destroy "apollumi" does not mean CAUSED TO CEASE TO EXIST.
That is why Jesus can save the destroyed. That is why He came:
Luke 19:10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save what was lost [apollumi].
Now let me chuckle a bit. You think I was a Unitarian? How ironic. Well I accepted Christ in my views so now what is that if not Universalist? I tell you this now Universalism is not of Christ and you are on the sharp edge of a blade about to fall. Let us define the two then shall we?
Universalism refers to the belief that all humans can be saved through Jesus Christ and eventually come to harmony in God's kingdom. A related doctrine, apokatastasis, is the belief that all mortal beings will be reconciled to God, including Satan and his fallen angels
Unitarians believe in the teachings of Jesus Christ as found in the New Testament and other Early Christian writings. Adhering to strict monotheism, they maintain that Jesus was a great man and a prophet of God, perhaps even a supernatural being, but not God himself.
Now these two definitions are widely used by Universalists as their beliefs on here in some way or manner. The concepts cross back and forth and are more often interwoven. Dont take my word for it, go back and look for yourself. Interesting enough that if you search books and even the internet you can find a Universal Unitarian. And here it is....
Both Unitarianism and Universalism trace their origins to Christian Protestantism and thus Unitarian Universalism has its historical roots in the Christian faith. By the time they decided to combine their efforts at the continental level, the theological significance of these terms had expanded beyond the traditional Christian understanding. Today’s UUs appreciate and value aspects of other religions ranging from Judaism to Buddism. Although Unitarian Universalist congregations and fellowships tend to retain some Christian traditions, such as Sunday worship with a sermon and the singing of hymns, they do not necessarily identify themselves as Christians,nor do they necessarily subscribe to Christian beliefs. The extent to which the elements of any particular faith tradition are incorporated into one's personal spiritual practices is a matter of personal choice in keeping with Unitarian Universalism's creedless, non-dogmatic approach to spirituality and faith development.
Now digging deeper as I have it is notable that many secular definitions tend to place the two beliefs as not the same, but very close. So much so that there is a combination of the two. In fact both are placed as having roots in the Christian faith, but being seperate and distinct from the Christian faith based on sheer Christian fundamentals. The correct term is liberal theology. It would appear that apokatastasis is one major difference. I couldnt even seperate Christ is God versus Christ is man. I have heard Universalists say both.
Now some think I was Unitarian and I will also confess I forsaw this coming in this post. As such I planned for this. I have now posted the confirmed existance of Unitarian Universalism. So could I perhaps have been that too? I find that highly interesting and in fact somewhat comical.
But let us close with scripture from Christ. You know those little red words in the Bible that people like to point out so much. Let us take one more look on what Christ says about false teachings and false fruits in Matthew 7 verse 13. Unless you conclude the Bible has myth then what reasoning do you use to call Universalism Christian? And since my confession of being a former Universalist has been contended by those who believe in Universalism I will make these words red for those who believe in Christ.
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
Destruction how could this be? Christ says a path leads to destruction?
14 "Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Thank God for those Christians firmly grounded in scriptural truth!
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
Interesting we have false prophets who look like sheep, but are hungry like wolves.
16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
Interesting a seperation of two things seems to appear.
17 "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Here it is, a clear seperation.
18 "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
Still a seperation a distinction between two.
19 "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
And there we have the culmination of this distinction. One is cut down and cast in fire. Or once a tree is cut down can it be replanted? When man cuts down a tree it is not for preservation.
20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
But to drive the point home Christ chose to elaborate furthur.
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
But I thought everyone shall enter. And wait Christ used the word Me that everyone would be talking to Him. How then is he man you Universalists who claim different?
22 "Many will say to Me in that day 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
Sounds like Christ has taken on the form of a pleading lost soul to me. What could be said different here?
23 "And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
And there you have it. Christ will cast you out. How can Christ cast someone out? But let us go furthur.
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 "And the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
And here is where the distinction of True Christianity meets the distinction of everything else.
26 "But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built has house on the sand:
27 "And the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it feel. And great was its fall."
Truly Christ has spoken and there are lost souls. Open your Bible those of you who claim false teaching. Do not simply say, but Paul said. Paul was once known as Saul and a great master of the law. Many of you Universalists call the law fairy tales, myth, or the fallibilty of man. And for emphasis let me place this below......
Christ was not a disciple of Paul, but Paul was a disciple of Christ!
This is for those of you who pointed to we must accept both. Paul used common sense when he wrote. He knew to whom he gave his soul. It was to Christ. Could Paul contend with Christ on any matter? Consider this. Universalism is considered to have roots in Christianity, but wholly distinct liberal theology. As stated earlier I expected the Unitarian comments. And I have replied. Now I use words in red of Christ himself. I gave you a common definition of both Unitarian and Universalism. I also gave you Unitarian Universalism. What more is left to say?
Raelyn28, that was me, and I was simply trying to explain the difference between Unitarian Universalism (which is what this OP somewhat describes) and what is sometimes called Christian Universalism (which is 100% biblically based).
Personally I try not to use the label "universalism" as it is confusing because people call different things "universalism". Its just a label, which is not always accurate.
I simply believe the bible teaches that God will save all men. I believe all of the bible, and it all lines up with the teaching of the salvation of all.
This is heresy, plain and simple.
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