I was once a Universalist (crucified, disciple, Christ, Bible)

[svenM]

Then the soul dies or is destroyed.

you should have said this before, I have no moral objection against the doctrine of annihilation though I do not share this view.

English is not my mothertongue and the German word for "reward" can also imply something negative like punishment.

Do you at least agree with me, that the doctrine of everlasting torment maligns the name of God? - should you then not also openly oppose that doctrine (and universalism alike)?

[ALMOST2L8]

Originally Posted by svenM

you should have said this before, I have no moral objection against the doctrine of annihilation though I do not share this view.

English is not my mothertongue and the German word for "reward" can also imply something negative like punishment.

Do you at least agree with me, that the doctrine of everlasting torment maligns the name of God? - should you then not also openly oppose that doctrine (and universalism alike)?

Absolutely!! I do not agree with burning forever. Throughout the bible are many verses that proclaim that your punishment will fit your crimes (although not in those words). The universalisms beliefs definately intrigue me. But the biggest problem for me is that ALL will be saved. I mean, wouldn't that be great!! But I cannot help but disagree with the fact that I could live my life however sinful as I would like, and I still get to share the joy, glory, and wonders that the prophets and holy men worked so hard to achieve. And I am not implying that they were sinless, but I do believe that they are and were more holy than we could ever even imagine. So no, I do not agree with universalism and ET equally. I do not think that the thought of eternal suffering of the masses would make God evil, only unjust, and the bible has a constant theme of a God that is fair and just in his punishments. Everyone receiving the same punishment as say, Hitler or even Satan himself is hardly fair to someone who is a petty theif their whole life. And one question; Why openly???? I equally oppose both, but I feel that universalism can and will eventually be used for unparalleled evil. Possibly even become a one world religion, and forced upon other Christians. I would like to add that I have never thought that any universalist with whom I have spoken has neither used their beliefs for evil, nor are they evil themselves!!! Quite the opposite, most of them have been loving, and thoughtful. Well I gotta go for now. I work overnight, and need some sleep.


MAY GOD BLESS YOU SVENM!!!
ALMOST2L8

[Aschultz73]

Originally Posted by firstborn888

Confession time again eh? Yes, I generally have the forethought of the option of quoting wikipedia articles as well.

The point made is that your beliefs were more UU than CU
From your OP:


The above is absolutely NOT Christian Universalist thinking. So another response (more accurate and to the point) to:


... could have been "Yes, you're right"

Anyone can quote Wikipedia if it matches other sources. And yes it matches other sources quite well. I do clearly say that one can search books or the internet. I believed in Christ as I have clearly stated, but again lets just gloss over that and deny it. I love how attacks come, but nothing disproves what I have said.

[Aschultz73]

Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8

Absolutely!! I do not agree with burning forever. Throughout the bible are many verses that proclaim that your punishment will fit your crimes (although not in those words). The universalisms beliefs definately intrigue me. But the biggest problem for me is that ALL will be saved. I mean, wouldn't that be great!! But I cannot help but disagree with the fact that I could live my life however sinful as I would like, and I still get to share the joy, glory, and wonders that the prophets and holy men worked so hard to achieve. And I am not implying that they were sinless, but I do believe that they are and were more holy than we could ever even imagine. So no, I do not agree with universalism and ET equally. I do not think that the thought of eternal suffering of the masses would make God evil, only unjust, and the bible has a constant theme of a God that is fair and just in his punishments. Everyone receiving the same punishment as say, Hitler or even Satan himself is hardly fair to someone who is a petty theif their whole life. And one question; Why openly???? I equally oppose both, but I feel that universalism can and will eventually be used for unparalleled evil. Possibly even become a one world religion, and forced upon other Christians. I would like to add that I have never thought that any universalist with whom I have spoken has neither used their beliefs for evil, nor are they evil themselves!!! Quite the opposite, most of them have been loving, and thoghtful. Well I gotta go for now. I work overnight, and need some sleep.


MAY GOD BLESS YOU SVENM!!!
ALMOST2L8

What you are not seeing as that there are a number of people who use Unitarian concepts and claim Universalism. As I was accused of being Unitarian in making this post I submit to you that Universalism has led many on this board to intermix the two. Of course there are some who claim pure Universalism, but they also bear the weight of their teaching. Many on here profess Universalism and those who reply here are their champions, but they do not concur with what their champions say.

Also do not be so quick to discount hell. To often we say what it is not than what it is. To conclude that hell is not as forever denies scripture. Also numerous quotes by Jesus himself confirm its eternal existance. They idea of oblivion or a cease to exist is no where supported by any scripture. It is by nature the complete opposite of what Universalists claim. Either all are saved by Universalism or many will cease to exist. That God is a Holy God who will cast out to an outer darkness is repeated in scripture over and over. No where does cease to exist happen.

[svenM]

But I cannot help but disagree with the fact that I could live my life however sinful as I would like, and I still get to share the joy, glory, and wonders that the prophets and holy men worked so hard to achieve.

I can understand this position, but it does not reflect what biblical universalism teaches, there are and have been universalists that believe in punishment that is only little shorter then everlasting if one could say so, or "only" 1000 years, - do you think 1000 years of suffering is worth to live a sinful life, people often fear shame more then other things, if there is no punishment at all, but people shall feel ashamed for what they have done, would this be not reason enough to forbear from bad works?

If people can only be prevented from sinning by fear of eternal punishment, not by anything else, they would not fear God nor would they respect Him as righteous judge for they take not His judgment serious but only fear the worst case scenario they can imagine, but neither fear they God nor His righteous judgment in my opinion. I hope you get what I mean.

Possibly even become a one world religion, and forced upon other Christians.

Honestly, is it not the way round, is not the doctrine of hell forced upon believers from the clergy and by those who have been deceived by the clergy?

Biblical universalism has a long history and never have biblical universalists persecuted other Christians as far as I know - it would be at least a very contradictive behavior, on the other hand biblical universalists (the Origenists e.g. as far as I know) have been persecuted and killed by Catholics, also the Cathari in France have been said to be universalists - well they were rather Gnostics - but led a pious life, and that was no reason to slaughter them, as the Catholics did, Calvin endorsed the murder of a theological opponent because of doctrinal issues, you shall know them by their fruits - those who endorsed the doctrine of hell, have ever in history proven their violence and vile spirit, be it the pagan religions, the Catholic church, Islam, even the protestant reformers (who persecuted e.g. the anabaptists). A Jehovah Witness told me that the Orthodox Church (I suppose believers in hell) in Russia endorses the persecution and imprisonment of Jehovah Witnesses, JW don't belive in hell and have never persecuted anybody but were persecuted, as I said, you shall know them by their fruit.

New Age Universalism and Esoteric believes/mystic universalism does great harm in my opinion to biblical universalism.

kind regards

[Aschultz73]

Originally Posted by little elmer

Universalists are getting accused of believing things that we don't, and of not believing things that we in fact do.

No one is accusing. When I started this post I said I was once a Universalist. I stated clear scripture and I could have done more that justify Satan is an enemy and there are those for destruction. I have also clearly stated there are Universalists on this very board who by the very nature of believeing it have gone to other such thoughts like Unitarianism which is a logical progression.

I was accused of being more Unitarian than Universal, but I have always believed in Christ. If this is the very definition of the difference between the two than did I not fall under the definition of Universal?

The problem with Universalism is it doesnt square with the complete Bible. Many Universalists here have discounted the Old Testament as fable and myth. When establishing a theory of reconciliation the point to the teachings of Paul. So basically if I use the Old Testament its myth and fairy take, if I use the red words of Christ, it's point to Paul. Now this may indeed be an accusation, but go to my post in red letters and tell me where you find reconciliation.

My comment on Jesus not being a disciple of Paul, but Paul of Jesus was not touched either yet it seems. Jesus has primacy or does Universalism really not accept Christ? This is an honest question. Paul looks to Jesus not Jesus to Paul, and Jesus Himself declares He will cast out. Again read my red letters. I could in fact post more such words, but that is another time.

I have seen so much contradiction in Universalism on this board and around the internet, but when it comes to the so called Orthodox fundamentals I find little if any contradiction.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by ALMOST2L8

Absolutely!! I do not agree with burning forever. Throughout the bible are many verses that proclaim that your punishment will fit your crimes (although not in those words). The universalisms beliefs definately intrigue me. But the biggest problem for me is that ALL will be saved. I mean, wouldn't that be great!! But I cannot help but disagree with the fact that I could live my life however sinful as I would like, and I still get to share the joy, glory, and wonders that the prophets and holy men worked so hard to achieve.

Hi Almost2l8, I just wanted to comment on your statement here: "But I cannot help but disagree with the fact that I could live my life however sinful as I would like, and I still get to share the joy, glory, and wonders that the prophets and holy men worked so hard to achieve."

First of all, what is to stop a Christian from living their life however sinful as they would to, and then on their deathbed confessing to Christ for salvation? Same situation. Live how you want now, and get heaven later right? (Note I am not advocating that we all sin with reckless abandon).

Second, you make it sound like there is no consequences for sin. There are things in this world that are remarkably unpleasent, to say the least. Things like jail, depression, disease, cancer, war, heartache, hatred. Do you think you are immune to these things if you live "however sinful as I would like"? Would you like to party, smoke, and drink for 20 years, only to discover your partying ways have given you CANCER, and now wishing to die, instead end up living in pain for ANOTHER 20 years? Do you think there are no consequences?

God has made it clear He will not be mocked, and every man will reap what he sows. Universalism does not change this. People will quite often flippantly say that if God saves all, then they can do whatever they want, while conveniently ignoring the very real consequences that will be brought upon them. We see examples every day in our world: cancer, AIDS, depression, chemical dependancy, drug addiction, destroyed family life. This is not "fun stuff", and to endure it half a life time will perhaps teach you how to live rightly.

Think about the prodigal son. He ended up eating with the pigs. That taught him he had it good with his father, and when he returned, the father opened with welcome arms, and the prodigal son had learned a valuable lesson. Sometimes you have to learn things the hard way.

[Aschultz73]

Originally Posted by trettep

It doesn't appear to me that you were a Christian Universalist because it doesn't sound like the same scriptural understanding of universalism comprised your universalism beliefs. Sounds like you may have been under that form of universalism that many of the anti-universalists THINK universalists embrace which is one where you can be saved no matter if continue in sin or not.

So then I ask you can you be saved if you continue to sin or not? Does the devil not continue to sin? Yet he will be saved or you can call it reconciled as most Universalists seem to use.

So what is the difference if you sin or not if ultimately you are going to heaven anyway. Where is the difference. All I get is posts that it is not scriptural universalism. I have heard that 1000 years of torment during the Mill kingdom, but in Revelation after that there is a destruction of unsaved. Define it then. Please dont post a link I have read enough off this board.

[Aschultz73]

Originally Posted by legoman

Hi Almost2l8, I just wanted to comment on your statement here: "But I cannot help but disagree with the fact that I could live my life however sinful as I would like, and I still get to share the joy, glory, and wonders that the prophets and holy men worked so hard to achieve."

First of all, what is to stop a Christian from living their life however sinful as they would to, and then on their deathbed confessing to Christ for salvation? Same situation. Live how you want now, and get heaven later right? (Note I am not advocating that we all sin with reckless abandon).

Second, you make it sound like there is no consequences for sin. There are things in this world that are remarkably unpleasent, to say the least. Things like jail, depression, disease, cancer, war, heartache, hatred. Do you think you are immune to these things if you live "however sinful as I would like"? Would you like to party, smoke, and drink for 20 years, only to discover your partying ways have given you CANCER, and now wishing to die, instead end up living in pain for ANOTHER 20 years? Do you think there are no consequences?

God has made it clear He will not be mocked, and every man will reap what he sows. Universalism does not change this. People will quite often flippantly say that if God saves all, then they can do whatever they want, while conveniently ignoring the very real consequences that will be brought upon them. We see examples every day in our world: cancer, AIDS, depression, chemical dependancy, drug addiction, destroyed family life. This is not "fun stuff", and to endure it half a life time will perhaps teach you how to live rightly.

Think about the prodigal son. He ended up eating with the pigs. That taught him he had it good with his father, and when he returned, the father opened with welcome arms, and the prodigal son had learned a valuable lesson. Sometimes you have to learn things the hard way.

Interesting considering a thief died right next to Christ on a cross and Christ told him he would be in paradise.

Wordly implications mean nothing to a sinner if they dont care about eternity. In fact knowing I can be saved or reconciled anyway can wholly lead to not caring about what happens. A person can smoke and not get cancer. A person can have a destroyed family life and continue to commit adultery happily. A person can take drugs and not care that they just wanna get to that next fix. To simply list off things and think that people know they are consequences is a bit simplistic. I have worked in places where people do the very things you call out and continue to do them in a non chalant matter with no worry.

I would suggest you look up the word Contrite as I used it in the original OP. This is the difference between being a Christian in repentance and being something else not Christian.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Aschultz73

Interesting considering a thief died right next to Christ on a cross and Christ told him he would be in paradise.

Wordly implications mean nothing to a sinner if they dont care about eternity. In fact knowing I can be saved or reconciled anyway can wholly lead to not caring about what happens. A person can smoke and not get cancer. A person can have a destroyed family life and continue to commit adultery happily. A person can take drugs and not care that they just wanna get to that next fix. To simply list off things and think that people know they are consequences is a bit simplistic. I have worked in places where people do the very things you call out and continue to do them in a non chalant matter with no worry.

I would suggest you look up the word Contrite as I used it in the original OP. This is the difference between being a Christian in repentance and being something else not Christian.

You sound like that you do not have faith to believe that God works in a man both to will and to do of his good pleasure , that he completes that which he has started, that he is the author and finisher of our faith.
The truth is not one of us has repented on our own accord but we have been lead and caused by the goodness and kindness of God Romans 2 verse 4. You see it's the goodness and kindness of God that arrests a mans heart and turns him in the way of righteousness, without that we would all still up to our old antics.
If the Lord said to me "Camps you can live how you want and i will still be all in all to you" , i would say it won't be so Lord, complete that which you have started in me , you have placed a hunger and desire in me which no pleasure of this world can compare with it , draw me after you and let us run together .