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Nope. He never did. You know how I know? Jesus never died for him before he died and we all know that one can't believe after they died. (spoken tongue in cheek.) Their fate is sealed for alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllll eternity (according to you ETers). According to you ETers no one can believe after they die. Too bad for poor ole Lazarus! But somehow he got in just 'cause he was poor as snot.
But there was a way of getting to Heaven before he died wasnt there?
He was a Jew and we can assume he did believe in God the Father??
Smack your head all you want but Christ spoke more about hell than love. You can discount penalty all you want and you can think of it in terms of man, but if Universalists profess Jesus is God (I have found alot who cant or wont) than Jesus clearly knew something you dont.
Actually, dear friend, Jesus never once used the word "hell" in any of His discources. Not even once did that word leave His mouth. How so? you might ask?
Answer:
Jesus only used the word Gehenna. Gehenna is the trash dump just to the south of Jerusalem in a ravine. It is where they burned the city trash. When Christ returns they are going to start it as a trash dump again where they, again, will burn the city trash. And those who receive the death penalty and are killed will have their dead bodies dumped into Gehenna rather than having a decent Jewish burial. This is the most shameful thing to happen to Jews and it teaches everyone a lesson not to committ egregious crimes in Israel.
Originally Posted by Eusebius Nope. He never did. You know how I know? Jesus never died for him before he died and we all know that one can't believe after they died. (spoken tongue in cheek.) Their fate is sealed for alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll lllllllllllll eternity (according to you ETers). According to you ETers no one can believe after they die. Too bad for poor ole Lazarus! But somehow he got in just 'cause he was poor as snot.
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Originally Posted by Manchester_Jay
But there was a way of getting to Heaven before he died wasnt there?
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Originally Posted by Manchester_Jay
He was a Jew and we can assume he did believe in God the Father??
John wrote this after Jesus died:
Joh 3:13 "And no one has ascended into heaven except He Who descends out of heaven, the Son of Mankind Who is in heaven."
The Jew never thought of "going to heaven." They always believed they would be resurrected and enter into the kingdom that is going to be set up on the earth in which Israel will rule over the nations. That is yet future and will take place.
The believers of the nations are the ones who have a heavenly destination while the Jewish believers remain on the earth.
ABIDE OR REMAINS-All that which has been accomplished in His power and for His glory will survive( Mt 25:21,23; 2 Cor 5:9; Phil 3:13; I thes 2:19)
REWARD- tHIS IS NOT A JUDGEMENT FOR SIN. CHRIST PAID THE PRICE SO THAT NO BELIEVER WILL EVER BE JUDGED FOR SIN. THIS IS ONLY TO DETERMINE ETERNAL REWARD.
THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE CORINTHIAN BELIEVERS, NOT THOSE WHO ARE NOT OF CHRIST.
13The work of each [one] will become [plainly, openly] known (shown for what it is); for the day [of Christ] will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work each person has done.
I know you believe that to be true. I understand that you would like that to be true. But Paul makes no such distinction. In fact he says everyone will be judged for their works, not just the believers. Every persons work shall be made manifest, not just Christians. The language here is the same as found in ...
Rev 20:13-15
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Now compare to ...
1Cr 3:13-14 Every man's workshall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Both of these judgments are the same judgment of works ... Those who are cast into the lake of fire in Rev 20:13-15 are those who are saved by fire in 1Cr 3:13-14 ...
Even if 1Cr 3:13-14 referred only to the judgment of Christians, then those who have no good works would be the wicked servants spoken of by Christ. And we know that the fate of the wicked servants is to be allotted their portion with the unbelievers. So if wicked Christians who have no good work are saved by fire, than so are the unbelievers whose fate is the same.
Luk 12:46
The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
I understand you really hate the idea of god saving everyone. I realize that you just cannot accept this, it would really ruin your idea of Justice. But one day you will have no choice but to accept it when all is revealed. Dont worry, you will rejoice along with the rest of us in the end.
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 01-23-2010 at 10:47 AM..
1 Cor 3:14-15
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
Paul's image is a large building under construction with many men involved. Some are using good materials and some are using very poor materials. At the judgement seat of Christ the materials will be judged. Just as wood, hay and straw can't stand before a fire, false doctrine will not stand before the judgement of God. God has determined that day to determine the reward of the minister. 1 Corinthians 3:14&15 tells us about two different types of workers who are going to be exposed at that day of judgement.
The wise worker is discussed in verse 14:
If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
This is the man that has built with gold, silver and precious stones, the things that endure. He has taught the truths of the word of God, he has taught sound doctrine. Several years ago, Allen Greenspan said, "Gold is a different type of commodity because virtually all of the gold that has ever been produced still exists." Gold does not decay or rot. Build with gold because it will endure. All that we teach will someday by evaluated by God. The wise builder will be rewarded by God for his faithfulness. Wood, hay, and straw are easily found in a backyard, and it does not take too much effort to pick them up. Gold, silver, and jewels require a lot of hard work to procure. Lazy preachers and teachers will have much to answer for at the judgement seat of Christ.
In contrast to the wise workman who uses gold, silver, and precious stones is the foolish workman of verse 15:
If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
The foolish workman will suffer loss of reward, not salvation, because of his foolish teaching. The stress in this passage is not upon a man's relationship to Christ, salvation, but upon service to Christ. The foolish workman will be as a man escaping a burning house fire with his life, but all else will be lost. Each believer's teaching will be evaluated by God and that which is not true will be burned up. Everyone who teaches, whether it be at the pulpit, a Sunday school, or a any type of Bible study, or your own children, is subject to this judgement.
This is a warning to all who build others up with the word of God.
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Luk 6:35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Here the Greek word chrestos, is translated: "kind," and in Romans 2:4 the same word is translated: "good" in the NKJV.
Romans 2:4 (NKJV) Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance?
Kindness and goodness are so closely related that they are often used interchangeably. We are to be kind to one another, we are to be good to each other, we are to be gracious to each other. We see this fleshed out in the story of the good Samaritan. The Samaritan was kind, he responded to the need that he saw.
Kindness manifests compassion. This is action that comes out of empathy. It may take the form of a kind word, an invitation to lunch, an offer to help. In our cruel and unkind society, we have unlimited opportunities to show the world love through kindness.
It is the glory of God that He is kind to the unthankful and to the evil, bestows the gifts of common providence even upon the worst of men, who are every day provoking him, and rebelling against him, and using those very gifts to his dishonor.
This is not a example of Post Mortem Salvation.
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Mat 5:5
Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
When Jesus made this statement, He certainly ran against the current mood of the religious leaders of the day. They thought that the only way to inherit the land was to overthrow the Roman government, and that certainly could never be done by being meek. They had to be aggressive and hard, not passive and soft. This verse does not support your paradigm in any way, shape or form.
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Mat 25:34
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Does this sound a lot like Matthew 16:27?? The Kingdom itself was the crown jewel, and the New Jerusalem came in fullness with the passing of the old Jewish age. The transitional New Testament time between the resurrection of Christ, when the New was introduced, and the end of the Old age was consummated; and the Kingdom took hold in power once and for all, thanks to the redeeming work of Christ.
The righteous were rewarded, and the wicked were judged:
Matthew 25:41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Throughout Matthews gospel, Jesus continually warned the Jews of their coming judgement, because of their apostasy.
Matthew 21:43 "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it.
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Jam 2:5
Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
"God has chosen the poor man," James writes, "but you have dishonored him." Isn't it obvious that God has chosen the poor? There. The Greek verb James uses is in the middle voice. It means: "to choose for yourself." God has chosen the poor to sustain a loving relationship with him. He does not merely tolerate the poor. He has chosen them in order to pour himself out to them, to love them. And James says that we can do nothing less.
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1 Cor 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Finish the verse Ironmaw. Readers of the forum, take note of this repetitive flaw on the part of the Universalist.
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Col 3:24
Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
The phrase "from the Lord" is emphatic in the Greek. The ultimate reward comes from God, because you are ultimately serving Christ. This is crucial knowledge if we are going to live a qualitative Christian life.
What is the inheritance that Paul talks about?
Hebrews 9:15 And for this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, in order that since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.
Notice that it is the "called" - believers, who "...receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." What is the promised inheritance? It is the New Covenant, the New Jerusalem. The inheritance of the land in the Old Covenant was temporary, it was but a type and picture of the believer's inheritance in the new age.
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1Th 2:19
For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
The above is about the Parousia, in regards to the saints, and has nothing to do with Universalism in any way, shape of form.
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2Ti 4:8
Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
As Paul faced the end of his physical life, he says that he has kept the faith. He had remained faithful to living a life that honored Christ. He had no regrets, no remorse, no sorrow for tasks unfinished. Earlier in his ministry, Paul said:
Acts 20:22-24 And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. But none of these things move me; nor do I count my life dear to myself, so that I may finish my race with joy, and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God.
Nothing mattered to Paul except being faithful to God's call. If you were to ask Paul the question, "What do you want to be true about you?" He would most likely say, "I want to be faithful to the Lord Jesus Christ to the very end." How did he make sure that it happened? He knew what kind of person he wanted to be, and everyday he disciplined and structured his life to make it come about.
That's why he said:
1 Corinthians 9:24-27 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may obtain it. And everyone who competes for the prize is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a perishable crown, but we for an imperishable crown. Therefore I run thus: not with uncertainty. Thus I fight: not as one who beats the air. But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.
Needless to say, Paul is using an athletic metaphor in these verses. The point he is making is; in order to be found faithful at the end of his race, he had to be faithful today. He lived everyday like it had eternal significance.
Quote:
1Pe 5:4
And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away/
Rev 20:6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Irrelevant to your case, as they all are.
Quote:
Those that are righteous in Christ through faith and believe in this life shall inherit the kingdom.
Agreed. We are already in the kingdom. We are priests and kings. Rev 1.
Quote:
The wicked and those that do not believe shall not inherit the kingdom, but will be subjected to the kingdom when they have been saved by the fiery judgments of god, purified of their unbelief and of all sin which is according to the carnal nature.
You have not supported this in any way from the scripture, but all you have supported is the inheritance of the righteous.
You have imposed your ideas into scripture that ONLY support the rewards for the righteous.
Universalism and the paradigm of fiery redemption has failed.
I am not affiliated with any name of a religion. I am neither Catholic, Protestant, Baptist ect...
I do not need a name of a religious organization. Plain and simple I am a bible believer. I believe the truth...which is God's word The Bible.
The theory of evolution became very popular. Many people became convinced that life originated by accident—???? without God.
Most religions have failed to provide convincing evidence that God is the Source of life. The churches, for the most part have failed to demonstrate clearly that living by God’s law is the best way of life.—James 1:25.
And some religious leaders claimed that God accepts you no matter how you live.
The Bible clearly states:
“There will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled.”—2 Timothy 4:3.
“Oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:29, 30)
Satan is clearly behind the misuse and corruption of religion.
“Such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.”—2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
Our Heavenly Father, does care deeply about worship rendered in the truth rendered by sincere people.
Our Heavenly Father is pleased when individuals express appreciation for all that they receive from him. (Malachi 3:16, 17)
We all need to take an active interest in the true God, with whom life itself originated.
God sent his Son to die on our behalf so that those who would put faith in their provision might enjoy everlasting life. John 3:16
I think that since Satan roams the earth, Hell is the things that are happening all around us in the evil sense here on earth........
I am not affiliated with any name of a religion. I am neither Catholic, Protestant, Baptist ect...
I do not need a name of a religious organization. Plain and simple I am a bible believer. I believe the truth...which is God's word The Bible.
The theory of evolution became very popular. Many people became convinced that life originated by accident—???? without God.
Most religions have failed to provide convincing evidence that God is the Source of life. The churches, for the most part have failed to demonstrate clearly that living by God’s law is the best way of life.—James 1:25.
And some religious leaders claimed that God accepts you no matter how you live.
The Bible clearly states:
“There will be a period of time when they will not put up with the healthful teaching, but, in accord with their own desires, they will accumulate teachers for themselves to have their ears tickled.”—2 Timothy 4:3.
“Oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.” (Acts 20:29, 30)
Satan is clearly behind the misuse and corruption of religion.
“Such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps transforming himself into an angel of light. It is therefore nothing great if his ministers also keep transforming themselves into ministers of righteousness.”—2 Corinthians 11:13-15.
Our Heavenly Father, does care deeply about worship rendered in the truth rendered by sincere people.
Our Heavenly Father is pleased when individuals express appreciation for all that they receive from him. (Malachi 3:16, 17)
We all need to take an active interest in the true God, with whom life itself originated.
God sent his Son to die on our behalf so that those who would put faith in their provision might enjoy everlasting life. John 3:16
I think that since Satan roams the earth, Hell is the things that are happening all around us in the evil sense here on earth........
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Eternal Torment...????????
