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Old 01-21-2010, 09:18 PM
 
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For 30 years I believed that dreadful doctrine. God is love, but... most of His creation will be tortured forever.

What a nightmare. It affected me so, most of the time I would not think about it - the doctrine of eternal torment actually drove me away from God. And then when I would return to God I would pray "why do people have to burn forever? Can't you just save some of them Lord? Please?"

Well finally my prayer was answered when He revealed to me the truth of universal salvation in the scriptures.

For other people here who now believe in universal salvation through Christ, I wonder how long it took you to learn the truth?
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:29 PM
 
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When God finally did reveal the truth of Universal Salvation to me, I jumped at it immediately. First I tried to refute it. When that didn't work I embraced it as the truth.

Its amazing to me that so many people think they can refute it. The only way you can "refute" it is to continue believing in contradictions like "God is love, but...." and "God desires to save all, but He won't do it".
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:43 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,453,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
When God finally did reveal the truth of Universal Salvation to me, I jumped at it immediately. First I tried to refute it. When that didn't work I embraced it as the truth.

Its amazing to me that so many people think they can refute it. The only way you can "refute" it is to continue believing in contradictions like "God is love, but...." and "God desires to save all, but He won't do it".
(Luke 13:22-25)

23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,


24"Strive to enter through the narrow door;
for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'


Question. In this verse they asked Jesus the same question you did yet He never gave them the answer they were looking for but He gave you? That's sounds like a contradiction of scripture? or are you a prophet with some new revelation?
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Old 01-21-2010, 09:50 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,407,598 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
(Luke 13:22-25)
23And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them,

24"Strive to enter through the narrow door;
for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'


Question. In this verse they asked Jesus the same question you did yet He never gave them the answer they were looking for but He gave you? That's sounds like you are contradicting scripture?
You are right Jesus never gave them an answer (in that verse). What contradiction? Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it.

Have you ever been tormented by the thought of humans being burned in fire forever? I thought about it a lot when I was about 8 years old. It didn't make sense.
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:00 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,453,301 times
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You are right Jesus never gave them an answer (in that verse). What contradiction? Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it.

Have you ever been tormented by the thought of humans being burned in fire forever? I thought about it a lot when I was about 8 years old. It didn't make sense.

Hell doesn't fully make sense to me either just like many things in the bible. The doctrine has to be real because no Christian could create, keep or believe such a doctrine if it wasn't real, knowing that their own loved ones; children, beloved wife, mommy, nana etc....are subjected to such a fate of eternal torment as well. There is no escape from it, if you create such a horrible doctrine then it includes the ones you love as well.

Unfortunately you universalist don't think before you accuse us (we who believe in hell) of being selfish and unloving because it is absolutely illogical, ludicrous for thinking we don't love our loved ones and don't want to see them in heaven, that is just self righteous. It is unfathomable for us.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 01-21-2010 at 10:17 PM..
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Old 01-21-2010, 10:48 PM
 
6,221 posts, read 6,407,598 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post

Hell doesn't fully make sense to me either just like many things in the bible. The doctrine has to be real because no Christian could create, keep or believe such a doctrine if it wasn't real, knowing that their own loved ones; children, beloved wife, mommy, nana etc....are subjected to such a fate of eternal torment as well. There is no escape from it, if you create such a horrible doctrine then it includes the ones you love as well.



Why do you say that the doctrine "has to be real" for that reason? I understand what you are saying, but do you realize for a large portion of our history (hundreds of years), the Catholic church didn't even allow people to own a bible, let alone read it? The people simply believed what they were told, and they were told they would burn in fire forever unless they did what the church said. Fear is powerful, that is how the doctrine has maintained its power.

Quote:

Unfortunately you universalist don't think before you accuse us (we who believe in hell) of being selfish and unloving because it is absolutely illogical, ludicrous for thinking we don't love our loved ones and don't want to see them in heaven, that is just self righteous. It is unfathomable for us.
I understand you have to defend eternal torment because that is your reality. I apologize if I have accused you of being unloving. I actually feel for you because I know you have said the rest of your family does not believe in Christ. You must worry about them constantly.

It makes sense to me how one might continue to believe in hell due to fear or lack of knowledge. But it doesn't make sense to me why one would want to continue believing in hell when it can be shown that it is untrue.
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:56 PM
 
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It doesnt matter what you believe it only matters what God has said throughout scriptures and He repeated in Christ Jesus. Argue against it all you will. It is clearly there and quite distinct. Christ spoke of it more than love, you've heard me say it another post.
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Old 01-22-2010, 12:57 AM
 
4,657 posts, read 7,615,406 times
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Originally Posted by legoman View Post
You are right Jesus never gave them an answer (in that verse). What contradiction? Jesus came to save the world, not condemn it.

Have you ever been tormented by the thought of humans being burned in fire forever? I thought about it a lot when I was about 8 years old. It didn't make sense.
Have you ever been tormented by a rapist getting life in prison? Have you ever been tormented by a murderer getting the death penalty?

Jesus doesn't condemn us, our sins do; but Praise God, despite our awfulness, he loved us so much that he stood in proxy for us so that we wouldn't have to burn eternally, although by all accounts, we should. God is awesome.
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:40 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,569,049 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post

The doctrine has to be real because no Christian could create, keep or believe such a doctrine if it wasn't real, knowing that their own loved ones; children, beloved wife, mommy, nana etc....are subjected to such a fate of eternal torment as well. There is no escape from it, if you create such a horrible doctrine then it includes the ones you love as well.

Unfortunately you universalist don't think before you accuse us (we who believe in hell) of being selfish and unloving because it is absolutely illogical, ludicrous for thinking we don't love our loved ones and don't want to see them in heaven, that is just self righteous. It is unfathomable for us.
I just think you aren't able to fully grasp what you say you believe. This barbaric horrible notion of unceasing eternal pain is absolute insanity. If you really believed it you would not sleep a wink and go insane (if you have a conscience/empathy). Since I can tell from your posts that you do care (deeply) then my conclusion is you don't let it (ET doctrine) sink in.

Now, if you tell me you will be fully aware of your lost loved ones screaming in pain and yet you will still be all happy in heaven and dancing for joy - THEN I will accuse you of being selfish, conscienceless and heartless.
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:48 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,569,049 times
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Originally Posted by Sonrise View Post
Have you ever been tormented by a rapist getting life in prison? Have you ever been tormented by a murderer getting the death penalty?
Ummmm... many Et believers come up with arguments about Hitler and Stalin and rapists and murderers - the worst of the worst. To me this shows a bit of desparation to make ET sound reasonable.

We're not just talking about people who do horrendous things. Plus, being kept behind bars is a reasonable consequence for rape, as is death for murder.

This is nowhere near the league of what we are talking about here. We're talking about things like (for instance) a 15 year old non-believing orphan getting raped and killed and then spending eternity in pain - with no chance to ever change that because some bastard took them out.

This, my friend, is nuts. (AKA: Crazy)
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