Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
1 Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1 Timothy 2:1-3 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savoir,
Paul is exhorting them to pray for all men, for kings and for all those in authority. Christianity, in its beginning stages, was made up primarily of slaves and common men. Paul says, "Pray for all men, even kings and rulers, because God will save some of them also." "All men" means men of every station in life and racial origin. It is a removal of racial and social distinctions.
Quote:
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
The point here is that Christ died for all mankind, but it especially tru for those that are in the covenant, wherein one must enter to be the recipient of that salvation.
Isaiah 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
Job 23:13 But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases.
So God can achieve whatever He desires and no one can stop him. Seems logical, since He is God after all! Surely it will please God to achieve His desire and will to save all people, would it not? Is there a verse in the bible that says it is God's will and desire to torment people for eternity? I challenge you to find one. It doesn't exist.
What about man's choice; "free will" if you must call it that. People are all too quick to dismiss God's will and say man's free will must trump.
Quote:
Isaiah 45:22"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;For I am God, and there is no other. 23"I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness. And will not turn back, That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
God is saying, "I'm unique, I'm the only God, there is no other God besides Me."
22 "Look to Me, and be saved, All you ends of the earth! For I am God, and there is no other. 23 I have sworn by Myself; The word has gone out of My mouth in righteousness, And shall not return, That to Me every knee shall bow, Every tongue shall take an oath.
This is where our quote in Philippians is taken from, this is Yahweh, the one and only God, that is speaking.
24 He shall say, 'Surely in the LORD (Yahweh) I have righteousness and strength. To Him men shall come, And all shall be ashamed Who are incensed against Him. 25 In the LORD (Yahweh)all the descendants of Israel Shall be justified, and shall glory.'"
It is in Yahweh that salvation will come. In Isaiah 45:23, we see a strong emphasis on the sovereignty of God. And in Philippians, this title "LORD" is ascribed to Jesus. Jesus Christ is Yahweh, the Lord! Is Jesus Christ Lord? Yes! Who declared him Lord? God, the Father, exalted him and gave him the name "Lord," which is the name of sovereign God. Jesus Christ is Yahweh!
Quote:
Luke 2:10 But the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people;
Galatians 1:7 which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ.
The word "another" here is the Greek word allos, which means:"another of the same kind." Thus, It is as if Paul writes, "They brought you a completely different gospel. They claim it is just an alternative gospel of the same kind, but it isn't at all. It is all together different."
The word "gospel" is the translation of the Greek noun euangelion, which means: "good news." The Greek verb euangelizo means: "to bring or announce good news." Both words are derived from the noun angelos, which means: "messenger." In Classical Greek, a euangelos was one who brought a message of victory or other political or personal news that caused joy. The noun euangelion became a technical term for the message of victory, though it was also used for a political or private message that brought joy.
Both the noun and the verb are used so extensively in the New Testament that it developed a distinctly Christian flavor. As the angel told the shepherds:
Luke 2:10-11 And the angel said to them, "Do not be afraid; for behold, I bring you good news [euaggelizo] of a great joy which shall be for all the people; 11 for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord.
The gospel announces the only genuine salvation and victory over sin and death. This means that the gospel of Christ is not a warning of hellfire and damnation. That is bad news. The good news is that God has done something to make it possible for guilty, hell-deserving sinners to escape that condemnation. The good news is that Jesus Christ has paid the price of sin for man so that man can escape judgment.
Paul says, "...there are some who are disturbing you, and want to distort the gospel of Christ." Paul doesn't identify who these people were, but it's obvious they were Jewish converts who professed Christ. These were Jews who had come to adopt the Jewish Messiah, Jesus. They were the Judiazers. It wasn't folks outside the church who had led them astray, but teachers within the church who denied the message of salvation by grace through faith alone.
The most destructive dangers to the church have never been atheism, pagan religions, or cults that openly deny Scripture, but rather, supposedly Christian movements that accept so much biblical truth that their unscriptural doctrines seem relatively insignificant and harmless. But a single drop of poison in a large container can make all the water lethal.
And a single false idea that in any way undercuts God's grace poisons the whole system of belief.
Paul says if a person has added one single religious hoop that is necessary for salvation, let that person be damned by God. That's because it totally eradicates the essential message of grace. As a matter of fact, the language is so strong that Paul comes back in verse 10 and says:
Galatians 1:10 For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.
It's interesting in a book where Paul will talk about what it means to be free, that he identifies himself as a slave - a slave to Christ.
It's easy to read between the lines and realize that false teachers were accusing Paul of being a man pleaser. Paul showed up in Galatia and said all you have to do is receive this gift by grace in order to experience the salvation of God. Paul's teachers were saying, "You know, Paul told you that, because that's what you wanted to hear. He was just doing that to be a man pleaser. But to really be saved, you also have to do this and this and this." So Paul is responding to that and saying, "Listen, do I sound like a man pleaser now?" Because the language he uses is so very strong.
The implications of this text for our day are very important. The text is a radical and forthright denial of a pluralism which says that we are all on different roads to heaven but our destination is the same. There are popular forms of this universalism and there are technical, scholarly forms of it, but there is no Biblical universalism -- that is, no Biblical teaching that a person can go on rejecting the gospel of Christ and still be saved. There are other religions besides Christianity, and there are other leaders besides Jesus Christ, but there is no other gospel, no other good news of salvation.
I would hope that every one of us would agree that our church needs to be a church soundly committed to the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. What does this mean in very practical terms?
We must realize how important it is to be a protector as well as a proclaimer of the message of grace. We live in a culture where people say it's loving and it's tolerant to just allow people to define the Gospel however they want. But I believe that is the most unloving thing you could ever do. To allow someone to believe something that we know is not true, knowing in the end they will be damned by God, is as unloving as we could possibly be.
The most loving thing we can do is, with gentleness and kindness, proclaim the gospel of grace. It is totally a work of God and His grace, with no human merit added. Those people who have believed a different gospel need to be told the truth - not reaffirmed that what they believe is right if it is, in fact, in error.
Continuing on, we must establish the mission of Christ. Why did He come?
1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
John 1:29 The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
These two verses should put to rest any doubt that Jesus atonement was limited. It was not limited in any way, it was not only for us, but for the whole world. Thus Jesus has the title of "Savior of the world". Can He legitimately be called the Savior of the world if He does not save the world?
John 4:42 They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world.
1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Saviorof theworld.
John 3:16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Jesus came to save the world. Will He fail? Whoever believes in Him shall not perish. Sounds good so far. Does this statement ever expire? Is perishing a final state that cannot be recovered from? We shall see...
18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Some people will quote John 3:18 as proof of eternal hell. But its not talking about any kind of eternal hell at all. If one does not believe, they are already condemned. Didn't every single one of us not believe at one point? Then at that point we were already condemned. Condemned to what? Verse 19 tells us: the light has come into the world, but we loved darkness, because the light would expose our evil deeds. When one comes to believe in Christ, they are no longer condemned because they have acknowledeged (confessed and repented) their sins (evil deeds), so they can walk in the light with Christ.
Will the light of Christ fail at extinguishing all darkness, or will the darkness win?
Jesus came to do the will of the Father. The will of the Father "is to have all men be saved" thus Jesus is the savior of the world. Do you believe Jesus will fail at doing His Father's will? What about man's alleged "free will"? We have already seen that God has declared every man will eventually swear allegiance willingly to God. But some still do not believe it is possible that all men will come to God "But all things are possible with God!"
Guess what, God is in control of when a person comes to Christ:
John 6:44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
So will God draw all men so that Jesus can achieve full success as Savior of the World? YES:
John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.
This is the kind of death that Jesus died. It was for all men, so all men would be drawn to Him, so that all would eventually kneel and bow and swear allegiance, so that God will save all men.
Much more to cover and address, so I will continue in another post.
Are you saying those verses are not the right path or are untrue? I don't understand your comment.
Let me summarize it for you. Do you believe each of the following is true?:
1. God will have all men to be saved (1 Tim 2:4)
2. God is the savior of all men (1 Tim 4:10)
3. God will accomplish His desires (Isa 46:10, Isa 55:11, Job 23:13)
4. Every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance to God (Isa 45:23, Phil 2:9-11, Rom 14:11)
5. The good news will bring great joy to all people (Luke 2:10)
Do you believe those? If not, then we have a basic problem, because you don't believe the bible.
No, it is you who don't believe the Bible. You have no understanding of those verses you are using to push your heretical doctrine. You would have the Bible contradict itself.
Would you have people think that all those verses that declare that if you do not believe in Christ you will go into the lake of fire are written in the word of God just to take up space?
You're attempting to turn people away from the truth that if you do not believe in Christ for salvation you will spend eternity in the lake of fire. You are attempting to undermine the Gospel. You are pushing Satanic lies.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
1 Timothy 2:1-3 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savoir,
Paul is exhorting them to pray for all men, for kings and for all those in authority. Christianity, in its beginning stages, was made up primarily of slaves and common men. Paul says, "Pray for all men, even kings and rulers, because God will save some of them also." "All men" means men of every station in life and racial origin. It is a removal of racial and social distinctions.
See this is the unscriptural nonsense and word manipulation I was talking about in my OP. sciotamicks here has shown He doesn't believe God wants all men to be saved, in plain contradicition to the actual text.
Quote:
<snip>
There are popular forms of this universalism and there are technical, scholarly forms of it, but there is no Biblical universalism -- that is, no Biblical teaching that a person can go on rejecting the gospel of Christ and still be saved. There are other religions besides Christianity, and there are other leaders besides Jesus Christ, but there is no other gospel, no other good news of salvation.
Why do you lie so? Biblical universalism, what I believe, does not state "that a person can go on rejecting the gospel of Christ and still be saved". Have you not been paying attention or are you lying on purpose? Its like you don't want to know the truth and continue peddling the same old lies.
The bible says God will have all men to be saved (you don't believe it), and it also says all men will swear allegiance to God (you don't believe that either).
No, it is you who don't believe the Bible. You have no understanding of those verses you are using to push your heretical doctrine. You would have the Bible contradict itself.
Would you have people think that all those verses that declare that if you do not believe in Christ you will go into the lake of fire are written in the word of God just to take up space?
You're attempting to turn people away from the truth that if you do not believe in Christ for salvation you will spend eternity in the lake of fire. You are attempting to undermine the Gospel. You are pushing Satanic lies.
John 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
Give me a sec Mike, I can only type so fast!
I will get to the Lake of Fire. I will get to God's wrath. Patience people.
But its quite obvious you don't believe God will have all men to be saved in plain contradiction with 1 Tim 2:4.
How are we saved? By works? By faith? By grace? Everyone knows this right. So, how are we saved? Not by our own actions, that's for sure. We are saved by grace through faith:
Eph 2:8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
Now what is the gift? The grace or the faith? They are BOTH a gift. We are saved by God's grace through the faith He gives us. We don't have any grace, and we don't have any faith, unless God grants it to us (Romans 12:3).
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
You see this ties in directly with:
John 6:44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.
No one can come to God until they have been given the faith (by God's grace) to do so. But when they have that faith they will come.
Let's look at Titus 2:11 again. The grace that brings salvation has appeared to all men. This grace - it brings salvation. Thats what the grace does. It saves - that is the amazing part! AMAZING GRACE But the really amazing part is it has appeared to all men.
You know sometimes I like to look at other bible versions to get a better idea of what a verse really means. Imagine my surprise when I looked at the more obscure CEV version (on biblegateway):
Titus 2:11 God has shown us how kind he is by coming to save all people.
WOW. Can you see that? God has shown us how kind he is by coming to save all people! You see God's grace is His kindness. And it is that kindness (grace) that will save all people. It has appeared for all people.
Luke 3:6 And all mankind will see God's salvation.
There it is, again, plain as day. All mankind will see God's salvation.
Now this kindness, this grace from God that brings salvation to all men - it ties directly into repentance. Repentance is necessary for salvation. But salvation is by grace, not works... so do you provide your own repentance? NO THAT COMES FROM GOD TOO! People will repent when God grants them repentance. Read and learn:
Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."
Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
2 Cor 7:9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
2 Tim 2:25 Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth
Do you realize the full implication of this? Let me give a quick summary so far:
- No one can come to Christ until God says so
- God will have everyone to be saved and all will swear allegiance to Him
- People are saved by God's grace, and that grace will come to all people
- God will lead people to repent by His kindness (grace)
So what does God's grace actually do? Let's continue on in Titus:
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
12 It teaches us to say "No" to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age
Wow, God's grace actually teaches people to say "No" to all the bad stuff! It teaches people to repent and become upright - righteous.
(Amplified version)
Eph 1:9 Making known to us the mystery (secret) of His will (of His plan, of His purpose). [And it is this:] In accordance with His good pleasure (His merciful intention) which He had previously purposed and set forth in [a]Him,
10[He planned] for the maturity of the times and the climax of the ages to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ, [both] things in heaven and things on the earth.
There is alot of info in these 2 verses. God's plan was a secret, a mystery, yet He tells us it here in these very verses. Few believe it though. First, who is the "us" being addressed in verse 9? Its the same people in verse 4:
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
This is the "us" that was chosen before the foundation of the world. If you haven't figured it out, this is the elect. And no it does not include everyone.
So what have the elect been told? The mystery in verse 9-10. God's plan is this: to unify all things and head them up and consummate them in Christ
Are you seeing it? God will unify all things, and bring them under Christ. That is the plan, and He's telling it to the elect right now.
Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will
Part of the amazing thing about this verse (11) is that we see God works all things after the counsel of his own will. God is in charge folks. Where's our free will? - no where. Does God work all things after the counsel of our free will? LOL we are told here otherwise.
Carrying on we see that the elect have been predestined to obtain an inheritance. Who are these elect? They are the "especially saved", the believers, who understand now.
1 Tim 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
You see there are two groups saved, one is a subset of the other:
1. All men
2. those that believe (the elect, who have been predestined)
It doesn't say only the elect will be saved. No, non-elect will be saved too, they just don't know it yet, because they don't believe... yet. God's purpose and plan is to bring all things together in Christ. He will have all men to be saved. Some are elected now for a special role, others will be saved later.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
But the really amazing part is it has appeared to all men.
WOW. Can you see that? God has shown us how kind he is by coming to save all people! You see God's grace is His kindness. And it is that kindness (grace) that will save all people. It has appeared for all people.