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Old 02-04-2010, 09:06 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,780,338 times
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Actually the Concordant Literal also seems to support the meaning of "it would have been good for Christ if Judas had not been born":

Matt 26:24 The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!

In this rendering it is clear that "Ideal were it for Him" is refering to Christ, and "that man" is referring to Judas.

 
Old 02-04-2010, 09:08 AM
 
699 posts, read 514,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
To say this verse by itself proves eternal torment is reading your own view into the text.

To say it "cannot be anything other than eternal punishment" is reading into the text.
I didn't say it proved eternal torment. I said it proved that not all will be saved. Go back and check and you'll see that's what I wrote.

Quote:
Another interpretation I have heard, which I'm not sure of myself, is that the phrase "It would have been good for that man if he had not been born" is actually referring to Christ, not Judas. As in, it would be good for Christ if Judas had not been born. If you look at YLT, this could indeed be the possible meaning:


Mat 26:24 the Son of Man doth indeed go, as it hath been written concerning him, but wo to that man [JUDAS] through whom the Son of Man is delivered up! good it were for him [CHRIST] if that man [JUDAS] had not been born.' - bracketed text added for explanation.
That has been brought up elsewhere, but it doesn't work. It is flimsy. It is based merely on the existence of a single pronoun in the text, trying to suppose that the pronoun "him" refers to Christ. This is tenuous at best because it is Judas' betrayal and the consequences that are in view in the context, not Christ and what would have been good for him. It is also flimsy because Christ's statement about what would be good for him explains the "woe" that immediately preceded that statement. He is not shifting gears, first talking about Judas and then suddenly changing the subject to talk about himse. He is explaining the woe.

Universalism never entered the mind of God, friends.
 
Old 02-04-2010, 09:12 AM
 
699 posts, read 514,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Actually the Concordant Literal also seems to support the meaning of "it would have been good for Christ if Judas had not been born":

Matt 26:24 The Son of Mankind is indeed going away, according as it is written concerning Him, yet woe to that man through whom the Son of Mankind is being given up! Ideal were it for Him if that man were not born!

In this rendering it is clear that "Ideal were it for Him" is refering to Christ, and "that man" is referring to Judas.
This is all based on the use of the pronoun, αὐτῷ. The question is, what is the antecedent of that pronoun? We can't just arbitrarily say, "Well, it could refer to Christ, so it does." The context and flow of thought in the passage need to be taken into account. As long as you don't do that but quote a preferred translation and make suppositions, there is no way you are going to rightly understand the passage.
 
Old 02-04-2010, 09:17 AM
 
10,164 posts, read 4,737,584 times
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Jremy, Here are the facts:

Notice the Him and that man
Him is Jesus
that man is Judas

It would have been ideal for Jesus if Judas were not born.

 
Old 02-04-2010, 09:27 AM
 
699 posts, read 514,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post

Jremy, Here are the facts:

Notice the Him and that man
Him is Jesus
that man is Judas

It would have been ideal for Jesus if Judas were not born.
This doesn't prove a thing. It's just reasserting what has already been asserted. You're wasting your time.

Looking up and posting resources that fit your view will not impress anyone who takes the context and flow of thought into account. Try expounding the passage by considering the flow of Jesus' thought, and you'll see clearly that the reference to not being born describes the woe that precedes it. One sentence builds upon another.
 
Old 02-04-2010, 10:19 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,552,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amperage View Post
please show me the verse Miss Shawn_2828 that says that those thrown in the Lake of Fire cease to exist in any way shape or form.

On the other hand there are many verses, as others have brought up, that support the idea that fire is used as a judgment or a means of removing wickedness or impurity
OK, that simple.

Revelation 20:13-15

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[a] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:14-17

Blessed are those who do His commandments,[a] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[b] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

This is speaking outside of the Heaven and outside of God's presence.

Revelation 20:10

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 
Old 02-04-2010, 10:22 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,552,888 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
laugh my English ass off . How can Jesus on the one hand forbid fire to destroy and then on the other be the one who is doing it, and you cannot not think at least mmmmmmmm to yourself ( i would find that hard to believe that you haven't), or think to yourself "Lord this doesn't sound right" . The problem is with your misinformed can't read the word by the spirit mind . You have a schizomaniac has your god.
LOL, the only thing that you have is opinion and no scripture to prove me wrong. Show me scripture that says Jesus will judge the wicked and not send them into the lake of fire? Show me scripture that says the wicked don't even see the lake of fire? LOL, I have studied and and understand what I read, and your silly opinions want distort what I see in scripture. LOL, I will leave that up to you.
 
Old 02-04-2010, 10:22 AM
 
Location: RI
18,950 posts, read 8,882,028 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
OK, that simple.

Revelation 20:13-15

The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[a] 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 22:14-17

Blessed are those who do His commandments,[a] that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But[b] outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie.
16 “I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things in the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, the Bright and Morning Star.”
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.

This is speaking outside of the Heaven and outside of God's presence.

Revelation 20:10

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where[a] the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Where does it say they cease to exist in Revelation 20 :13 -15 ?. By the way who is denying the lake of fire and it's sole purpose ? Certainly not me .

Last edited by pcamps; 02-04-2010 at 10:34 AM..
 
Old 02-04-2010, 11:03 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
This doesn't prove a thing. It's just reasserting what has already been asserted. You're wasting your time.

Looking up and posting resources that fit your view will not impress anyone who takes the context and flow of thought into account. Try expounding the passage by considering the flow of Jesus' thought, and you'll see clearly that the reference to not being born describes the woe that precedes it. One sentence builds upon another.
Of course it proves everything.
 
Old 02-04-2010, 11:03 AM
 
1,489 posts, read 889,492 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
Preferable need not refer to what is subjective...
Read the descriptions of "woes" throughout scripture. Do they not routinely describe the subjective effect?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jremy View Post
You complained that I was only using the (e) definition of "good". So I was giving examples other definitions of "good" in that verse. They don't work. Let me be more explicit.

Here are the definitions.

1) beautiful, handsome, excellent, eminent, choice, surpassing, precious, useful, suitable, commendable, admirable
a) beautiful to look at, shapely, magnificent
b) good, excellent in its nature and characteristics, and therefore well adapted to its ends
1) genuine, approved
2) precious
3) joined to names of men designated by their office, competent, able, such as one ought to be
4) praiseworthy, noble
c) beautiful by reason of purity of heart and life, and hence praiseworthy
1) morally good, noble
d) honourable, conferring honour
e) affecting the mind agreeably, comforting and confirming

These all fail because Judas is not in control of whether he was born.

It would have been morally good for that man to never have been born.
It would have been noble for that man to never have been born.
It would have been approved for that man to never have been born.
It would have been praiseworthy for that man to never have been born.
It would have been good due to purity of heart for that man to never have been born.
It would have been honorable for that man to never have been born.
It would have been commendable for that man to never have been born.

These fail because... well... just read them

It would have been handsome for that man to never have been born.
It would have been beautiful for that man to never have been born.
It would have been emminent for that man to never have been born.
It would have been precious for that man to never have been born.
It would have been surpassing for that man to never have been born.

This one adds nothing beyond what "good" already says

It would have been excellent for that man to never have been born.

But these work just fine, especially in light of the scriptures that speak of men preferring not to have been born or preferring death when sitting under the judgments of God.

It would have been comforting for that man to never have been born.
It would have been agreeable to the mind for that man to never have been born.

Your own post descibes in terms of what Judas will experience.

Quote:
I'm not going to keep playing this silly game with you. You can't wiggle out of this by asserting that you don't have to prove it.
No, if you claim to prove something I only need to poke holes in your proof. The burden is not on me to prove the opposite.

Quote:
You do because you made the claim that the text teaches how Judas felt.
I only make the claim that is what I believe it means.

Quote:
Not at all. Nonexistence cannot be said to be good for a person if something better awaits him.

Jeremaiah seems to say just that.
  • Jeremiah 20:14 Cursed be the day I was born! May the day my mother bore me not be blessed! 15 Cursed be the man who brought my father the news, who made him very glad, saying, "A child is born to you--a son!" 16 May that man be like the towns the Lord overthrew without pity. May he hear wailing in the morning, a battle cry at noon. 17 For he did not kill me in the womb, with my mother as my grave, her womb enlarged forever. 18 Why did I ever come out of the womb to see trouble and sorrow and to end my days in shame?
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