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Old 02-05-2010, 02:24 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,699,267 times
Reputation: 551

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amperage View Post
My questions are quite simple. First, where does it say those thrown in the Lake of Fire cease to exist?

Answer: It doesn't.

So there are 2 options: never ending torment or eventual merciful salvation.

How does one reconcile Rev 15:1 which plainly states that "...the wrath of God is finished.", with never ending torment? That would be contradictory as a Lake of Fire seems pretty wrathful to me. It seems obvious to me that most of what is being talked about in terms of Heaven and Hell is referring to the time from now until Christ turns over the reign to the Father, so does the Great Commission get thrown out of the window? I should think not, as anyone who loves God and experienced the joys and peace of knowing God would not want others to suffer "forever"(end of Christs reign), when they could experience being in the Kingdom.
The scripture doesn't say they cease to exist, the scripture says that is where they will be?

I showed you where they are thrown in the Lake of Fire, show me scripture where they are taking out of that fire and in the Kingdom of Heaven?

It seems that you misunderstood what the scripture was saying in Revelation 15:1.

Revelation 15:1

Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

This scripture is not saying that the judgement is done, this scripture is saying after the seven last plagues in them the wrath of God is complete. So, 15:1 doesn't say that God judgement is yet finished, it says having seen seven plagues, for in them, after they are brought forth by the Lord, then Judgement is complete. You do notice as you read down the plagues are being brought forth by the Lord, so this shows His judgement is not yet done.

Yet, people seem to have a problem with God punishing someone, but yet we read that God is the one that is bringing forth plagues, destroying cities that disobeyed against Him, destroying those who came up against Him, struck those down that were wicked, and yet people have a problem with punishment.

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 02-05-2010 at 02:38 AM..

 
Old 02-05-2010, 03:12 AM
 
30 posts, read 17,658 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
This scripture is not saying that the judgement is done, ....it says having seen seven plagues, for in them, after they are brought forth by the Lord, then Judgement is complete
one second you say the scripture is NOT saying that the judgment is done and the next you say "for in them,....,then Judgment is complete"?

So does His judgment come to completion or not?

Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."

EDIT**
Or are you saying that what the scripture says is that God's wrath is complete in terms of there won't be any additional wrath's poured out besides what's already out there?

Last edited by Amperage; 02-05-2010 at 03:19 AM.. Reason: added additional comment
 
Old 02-05-2010, 03:43 AM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,699,267 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amperage View Post
one second you say the scripture is NOT saying that the judgment is done and the next you say "for in them,....,then Judgment is complete"?

So does His judgment come to completion or not?

Rev 16:17 Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl upon the air, and a loud voice came out of the temple from the throne, saying, "It is done."

EDIT**
Or are you saying that what the scripture says is that God's wrath is complete in terms of there won't be any additional wrath's poured out besides what's already out there?
I never said that God judgement never came to an end. You wrote in your post that God's judgement/wrath ended in Revelation 15:1, not 16:17.

Quote:
EDIT**
Or are you saying that what the scripture says is that God's wrath is complete in terms of there won't be any additional wrath's poured out besides what's already out there?
No, I am saying what the scripture is saying. If you would have placed verse 16:17 that would be a different story.

When speaking about what God said would be the punishment for the wicked that is not judgment, for they are judged for their works, by the things that were written in the book. Revelation 20:11-15.They are judged according to their works, and anyone not found in the book of life was cast into the Lake of Fire. Their punishment is the result of them doing what God said would place them in the Lake of Fire. So, the judgement is over, and the result is next. Just like the righteous, after they are judged, they receive the result next. So, judgement is over and done with.

Revelation 21:7-8 He who overcomes shall inherit all things,[a] and I will be his God and he shall be My son. 8 But the cowardly, unbelieving,[b] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”

Then we see again that anyone not written in the book of life will not inherit the Kingdom Revelation 21:27

Last edited by Miss Shawn_2828; 02-05-2010 at 04:01 AM..
 
Old 02-05-2010, 04:30 AM
 
Location: RI
19,392 posts, read 9,525,112 times
Reputation: 1349
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Shawn_2828 View Post
Eternal torment doesn't mean to cease to exist and I never said that they cease. It seems you have a hard time with coming up with things people didn't say. The bible and scripture says where the wicked will be and where the righteous will be. Simple

Of course I didn't because I didn't say that they will ever cease to exist in the Lake of Fire, that is where they will be. It seems you are playing this game again of not answering my questions. LOL
Well reading a lot of reply's to your posts , it seems that a lot of other posters get the feeling that you are saying one thing than another .

Amperage asked you to show where it said the wicked ceased to exist and your reply was "Ok that's Simple" this , that and the other.Post #266

Here you go again accusing others of what you do yourself . I answered you your question to me was " Show me scripture that says Jesus will judge the wicked and not send them into the lake of fire? Show me scripture that says the wicked don't even see the lake of fire? .

I replied i agree the wicked go to the lake of fire and that i have never said otherwise , post #278. What part of that do you not get that is a straightforward answer to your question

Last edited by pcamps; 02-05-2010 at 04:45 AM..
 
Old 02-05-2010, 05:42 AM
 
Location: RI
19,392 posts, read 9,525,112 times
Reputation: 1349
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The primitive misunderstanding of God runs deep. It astonishes me that humans can reconcile two completely opposing descriptions of God's nature. The primitive interpretations of Jehovah from 2000 to 4000+ years ago in the OT . . . and the unambiguous example of Christ that was supposed to correct those misunderstandings. If there is a devil . . . this has to be his greatest accomplishment. He has completely corrupted Jesus' message of love and redemption by retaining the heinous misrepresentations of God's motives and "mind" in the OT. I cannot understand HOW he could get Christians to actually BELIEVE that our loving Jesus and that evil monster Jehovah are descriptions of the same God . . . talk about deception!!! The straw man argument that is used to perpetuate this deceit is that "God does NOT change." OF COURSE God does not change! But the absurd and ignorant primitive UNDERSTANDING of our savage ancestors MUST change. God has NOT changed but the ONLY evidence we really have for the "mind of God" (motives, goals, etc.) is found in Jesus' presentation of the TRUE NATURE of God . . . NOT those ignorant interpretations of primitives from 2000- 4000+ years ago.
Amen Mystic

It says a lot when we the apparent believer still live out of the alienated mind along with the unbeliever
 
Old 02-05-2010, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Redding, Ca
920 posts, read 588,897 times
Reputation: 85
The correct interpretation of the word of God is in seeing a picture of the works of God accomplished.

All in between's, are simply mankind's views.

Gods works are
1. Creation = Adam and Eve = flesh and death
2, saving His creation = the second Adam = Payment for the loss of the first
3. Setting up a new creation = the third Adam = a resurrected Christ = all in Him are resurrected, quickened in spirit, new creatures.

Jesus rested, as did the Father in similitude.
The new creation rests in similitude to Jesus' rest.

All arguments in between are a means of getting to the truth, that is......if we are open to it.

Blessings, AJ
 
Old 02-05-2010, 01:36 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,699,267 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Well reading a lot of reply's to your posts , it seems that a lot of other posters get the feeling that you are saying one thing than another .

Amperage asked you to show where it said the wicked ceased to exist and your reply was "Ok that's Simple" this , that and the other.Post #266

Here you go again accusing others of what you do yourself . I answered you your question to me was " Show me scripture that says Jesus will judge the wicked and not send them into the lake of fire? Show me scripture that says the wicked don't even see the lake of fire? .

I replied i agree the wicked go to the lake of fire and that i have never said otherwise , post #278. What part of that do you not get that is a straightforward answer to your question
I am not saying one thing and then changing it. I never said the wicked cease to exist, I said ok that is simple. The person said that some think the scripture means something and the other one thing, pertaining to purity, judgement, etc.

I showed the scripture that shows what God said will happen to the wicked, nothing of me saying anything about the wicked ceasing.

And yet you believe that, but yet never provided the scripture that says the wicked will be taken out of that fire.
 
Old 02-05-2010, 01:46 PM
 
Location: RI
19,392 posts, read 9,525,112 times
Reputation: 1349
Can you refer me to the post where you asked me to provide a scripture that the wicked will be taken out of the lake of fire please.
 
Old 02-05-2010, 01:59 PM
 
Location: South Carolina
3,587 posts, read 3,699,267 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Can you refer me to the post where you asked me to provide a scripture that the wicked will be taken out of the lake of fire please.
You say

Quote:
I'm talking about those wicked unbelievers who apparently God must hate if He's going to send them into eternal torment .
Something you came up with, I never said that God hated them so much to send them into eternal torment, so you must have been talking to yourself.

You say you believe that they will be in the Lake of Fire, but yet scripture doesn't support them ever coming out of the fire as you believe. I would like to see scripture that says they will be taken out of that fire. This is why I asked the question and wanted to see scripture from you ranting on about something that wasn't said of God hating someone and eternal torment.
 
Old 02-05-2010, 02:04 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Wa
5,214 posts, read 3,330,103 times
Reputation: 402
Miss Shawn,

I would like to see that too. I have been asking for that for I don't know how long, and not one Universalist can answer it without removing the text from its context.
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