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Precisely! Call it "self" willed?
That is no argument.
The argument is whether Christ is the owner of your salvation!
No, your explanations, though intelligently posed with my admiration, lead me to believe that Jesus is not held by you as divine, as God in human form, but rather Jesus crucified as just another prophet?
Leaving the onus of salvation to our own merit of inner self, as if we can climb a latter towards God via our labor.
Self, as in me, is separate from God and not God!
Therefore. self, me, if wanting to be one with God must be born of the Spirit of God.
And that, like as yourself, make no exceptions.
Either one is born again or one is not!
Sorry, that there is a bit of shortness with me, yet you made an exception.
I appreciate the exception, and one in which I would never have to give in order to explain my views.
Blessings, AJ
Christ lives, Jesus the man passed.
He was divine. The only one to born again in the flesh, remembering who he was and who he now is, if you wish. (Only for the true Messengers of God, the True Prophets from God)
That was His dispensation.
Being born of the spirit is being one with Christ.
Self, as in me, is separate from God and not God!
Therefore. self, me, if wanting to be one with God must be born of the Spirit of God.
self of this world can rise to become Self son of God.
When Selfhood is attained, son of God then becomes Son of God.
I won't split hairs with you.
If I Am one with my Higher Self, I AM one with Christ and accepted as a Son of God just as Jesus the Christ has said and was, by God.
"All these things that I have done you will do also and greater things than these shall Ye do.
I made the exception because I recognise the Spirit in you
and my Spirit humbly thanks you.
The error in your understanding could have been due to the ambuguity of my humble attempt at verse, but rest assured my friend, there is no ambiguity in my view either, no mote in my eye.
Things aren't always what they seem.
As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
The Spirit without a body is lame
and AJ, please, no apologies are necessary
ps every time a see a person manifesting the attributes of God in this realm of existence, I feel like I am looking into the Divine face of God incarnate, don't you?
The argument is whether Christ is the owner of your salvation!
Different dispensations
Would I be any less a spiritual being to appreciate the same uniqueness in Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Mohammed, The Bab or Bahaullah? As Progressive Revelation, all incarnations of the One Divine Spirit, and messengers of God, appearing as many
Last edited by Ocean Drifter; 02-08-2010 at 02:42 PM..
The argument is whether Christ is the owner of your salvation!
Different dispensations
Would I be any less a spiritual being to appreciate the same uniqueness in Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Mohammed, The Bab or Bahaullah? As Progressive Revelation, all incarnations of the One Divine Spirit, and messengers of God, appearing as many
I understand and no further explanations are needed.
And the answer to your question above is: no, you would be no less spiritual in your views.
The only thing I would have to say, is in your missing out in the manifestation of Christ, meaning Christ in you, as the works of Christ being a joy in your salvation.
If not, then your joy can only be manufactured by your own will as contingent on your walk with God.
In other words, you make your own closeness with God based on your own sacrifices, rather than the sacrifice already being made in your behalf.
I have a friend, a Baha'i, and we go round and round.
I must say, that his getting short with me does not go unnoticed, where as mine is all inclusive.
I understand and no further explanations are needed.
And the answer to your question above is: no, you would be no less spiritual in your views.
The only thing I would have to say, is in your missing out in the manifestation of Christ, meaning Christ in you, as the works of Christ being a joy in your salvation.
If not, then your joy can only be manufactured by your own will as contingent on your walk with God.
In other words, you make your own closeness with God based on your own sacrifices, rather than the sacrifice already being made in your behalf.
I have a friend, a Baha'i, and we go round and round.
I must say, that his getting short with me does not go unnoticed, where as mine is all inclusive.
Blessings, AJ
Again Please listen carefully AJ
Christ is in me as my Conscience as opposed to my ego.
"Christos" the greeks called the Conscience their genius.
It is the ghost on the machine. The "That" that I Am. I in it and It in me.
"That Thou Art"
I Am That Iam,
in this world but not of it.
I'm not a sectarian fundamentalist, a fanatic or a zealot.
I Am in Christ and He is in me as my ever trustworthy parental spirit.
My Daisen. He is Daemon to my eidelon.
He has all power as my Conscience,
I am powerless as my ego.
The impostor needs ne dethroned so the rightful ruler can assume His throne, and so it has come to pass in the psyche of this individual. As such I have been born again, of the spirit, a twice born or born again, as they say. One though lesser than, with He. A disciple follower of my Conscience, Christ Conscience. I try with the grace of God to manifest His divine attributes in my life, allowing Christ, as best I can, to walk ah=agin in my shoes.
My Spirit (Conscience)is trying to communicate with your Spirit, can you hear Him, he's calling out to you for recognition? *Namaste`
If you cant see him in yourself you wont see Him in others whether others see Him in themselves or not
I bow to the Lord who abides within Om Namah Shivaya
*The Spirit within me Recognises, Honors and Greets the Spirit within you.
'Spirituality' not religiosity (pomposity) will save the world, one soul at a time if need be
Show him Bohm's dialog (To allow the 'creativity to flow'), every Bahai in training should adhere to it in regards to cross cultures of religion, perople don't want to trade one religion for another.
They will listen to how they gel together as one though, spiritually, except for the Sectarian Fundamentalists/and Literalists that is, and they're the reason for most of the horrors of society imho, Of the "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY, I'LL SAVE YOU IF I HAVE TO KILL YOU TO DO IT!" mentaculture, Heaven can do without
Last edited by Ocean Drifter; 02-08-2010 at 03:34 PM..
Again Please listen carefully AJ
Christ is in me as my Conscience as opposed to my ego.
"Christos" the greeks called the Conscience their genius.
It is the ghost on the machine. The "That" that I Am. I in it and It in me.
"That Thou Art"
I Am That Iam,
in this world but not of it.
I'm not a sectarian fundamentalist, a fanatic or a zealot.
I Am in Christ and He is in me as my ever trustworthy parental spirit.
My Daisen. He is Daemon to my eidelon.
He has all power as my Conscience,
I am powerless as my ego.
The impostor needs ne dethroned so the rightful ruler can assume His throne, and so it has come to pass in the psyche of this individual. As such I have been born again, of the spirit, a twice born or born again, as they say. One though lesser than, with He. A disciple follower of my Conscience, Christ Conscience. I try with the grace of God to manifest His divine attributes in my life, allowing Christ, as best I can, to walk ah=agin in my shoes.
My Spirit (Conscience)is trying to communicate with your Spirit, can you hear Him, he's calling out to you for recognition? *Namaste`
If you cant see him in yourself you wont see Him in others whether others see Him in themselves or not
I bow to the Lord who abides within Om Namah Shivaya
*The Spirit within me Recognises, Honors and Greets the Spirit within you.
'Spirituality' not religiosity (pomposity) will save the world, one soul at a time if need be
Show him Bohm's dialog (To allow the 'creativity to flow'), every Bahai in training should adhere to it in regards to cross cultures of religion, perople don't want to trade one religion for another.
They will listen to how they gel together as one though, spiritually, except for the Sectarian Fundamentalists/and Literalists that is, and they're the reason for most of the horrors of society imho, Of the "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY, I'LL SAVE YOU IF I HAVE TO KILL YOU TO DO IT!" mentaculture, Heaven can do without
The same spirit of God is in you as it is in me. Though we look at Him in different ways.
Alls, I can say, is that my view encompasses all souls under Christ regardless of views, and allowing each to live their lives according to their dictates.
If it is in ascending to a higher level spiritually for attainment, then so be it.
If God did not love His own creation, then we all might just have lived in the flesh to end of the physical only.
"My way or the highway" is as like the story of the apple, in the garden, a simple picture without understanding.
The only thing understood is, don't eat or you'll die.
But we both know that that is not the case.
So, the distinguishing point between us is the deity of Jesus (Being in question) as being God in person reconciling the world unto Himself.
If "There is not one way, but many" is your view, then you are are correct in your stated views.
But in my view, there is but one way, and that one way is evident in the whole of the bible as a work of God.
That work is God's as the sole owner of it.
Yes, the message to mankind is shared by many prophets, but only to one was it said: "This is my beloved Son".
If all the prophets were beloved sons, then there would have been no need to identify this one in particular.
Of course this is a never ending argument, so I'll let it rest.
The same spirit of God is in you as it is in me. Though we look at Him in different ways.
Alls, I can say, is that my view encompasses all souls under Christ regardless of views, and allowing each to live their lives according to their dictates.
If it is in ascending to a higher level spiritually for attainment, then so be it.
If God did not love His own creation, then we all might just have lived in the flesh to end of the physical only.
"My way or the highway" is as like the story of the apple, in the garden, a simple picture without understanding.
The only thing understood is, don't eat or you'll die.
But we both know that that is not the case.
So, the distinguishing point between us is the deity of Jesus (Being in question) as being God in person reconciling the world unto Himself.
If "There is not one way, but many" is your view, then you are are correct in your stated views.
But in my view, there is but one way, and that one way is evident in the whole of the bible as a work of God.
That work is God's as the sole owner of it.
Yes, the message to mankind is shared by many prophets, but only to one was it said: "This is my beloved Son".
If all the prophets were beloved sons, then there would have been no need to identify this one in particular.
Of course this is a never ending argument, so I'll let it rest.
Blessings, AJ
Body without the spirit is useless, and dead.
Spirit without the body is lame.
The Christ (Spirit) in us, as we are in Him is not a physical being, us being ephemeral, we as physicals on the linear and in time, give Spirit its Be-ing, it is a non-being, as it were an entity of sorts but ethereal in substance and not subject to time and space, as physical bodies are.
Which, in truth, God and Christ is a Higher stage of Consciousness. Which is what God and His Son, truly is. You've literally, taken the story too literally.
The problem with westerners (Christians-for the most part) is they project a god in form, because of this "image" (illusion) of God in the form of man, when God is formless, nothingness and eternal.
It's known as anthropomorhic projection, man creating God in his own image. Bs I'm sure you see the point here AJ?
Consciousness is all there is.
Absolute and relative.
When Awareness (Father) knows Sensation (Mother) Consciousness (Son) is born.
Very simple, very personal, yet it includes all in it and is contained by none.
Last edited by Ocean Drifter; 02-09-2010 at 05:43 AM..
Body without the spirit is useless, and dead.
Spirit without the body is lame.
The Christ (Spirit) in us, as we are in Him is not a physical being, us being ephemeral, we as physicals on the linear and in time, give Spirit its Be-ing, it is a non-being, as it were an entity of sorts but ethereal in substance and not subject to time and space, as physical bodies are.
Which, in truth, God and Christ is a Higher stage of Consciousness. Which is what God and His Son, truly is. You've literally, taken the story too literally.
The problem with westerners (Christians-for the most part) is they project a god in form, because of this "image" (illusion) of God in the form of man, when God is formless, nothingness and eternal.
It's known as anthropomorhic projection, man creating God in his own image. Bs I'm sure you see the point here AJ?
Consciousness is all there is.
Absolute and relative.
When Awareness (Father) knows Sensation (Mother) Consciousness (Son) is born.
Very simple, very personal, yet it includes all in it and is contained by none.
Quote AJ "
Yes, the message to mankind is shared by many prophets, but only to one was it said: "This is my beloved Son".
If all the prophets were beloved sons, then there would have been no need to identify this one in particular."
This is only in your 66 books by 30 different authors in three ifferent languages Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic;(Nt one of them in English I might add)
Again you are taking the story too literally AJ All "the prophets" were of the same 'elevated God Consciousness', it was a given in each of them. Just because 'the bible' says this one in particular, all whom have arisen in relative consciousness to Cosmic or God Consciousness, aka Awakened, are equally His "beloved Son, having arisen to the stature of Christ Consciousness, by any other name, i.e. Atman and Brahman of the Bhagavad Gita or SELF of the Upanishads, or Isis and Osiris. I'm really surprised you think christianity has a monopoly on Gods grace, that's rather spiritually immature and religiously narrow-minded (sectarianism) don't you think? Where's the "Oneness" of God in that- self-appointed, self-aggrandizing form of seperatism? Really!? How naiveté.
Sacred Scriptures are writen for the whole of mankind.
No one sect can claim to speak for God.
Last edited by Ocean Drifter; 02-09-2010 at 07:52 AM..
When Awareness (Father) knows Sensation (Mother) Consciousness (Son) is born.
Very simple, very personal, yet it includes all in it and is contained by none.
Well then, all we need is just to know who the father is, and that by the prophets so that we may understand by sensation that we are sons?
Prior to any written words, those who lived and died had no knowledge of who or what God even was, let alone having any prophets.
Instead there were myths of all human imaginations of gods of all sorts.
Now you tell me, with the first two lacking (Awareness and sensation) where is the son?
Now I give you what is written as the bible truth, and that is:
1. Creation.
2. Fall.
3. Judgment
4. Punishment
The end result of all that is mankind lost!
Yet, by the same token, God Himself endured the same to nulify the end resutls to that of life verse death.
That is the sequence of events and of Gods works.
Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Now, I don't care how much one thinks to be elevated spiritually, without God's work of saving, that which was lost, no amount of spiritual elevation will get you there.
"I am".... I am not, but I am in Him...... and not Him.
I am an individual entity, a soul called by God by name, apart from God, yet of God, dependent upon God upon my free will.
His name: Eph 1:21 Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come:
What does that tell you? That there is no other name above that which is named: Act 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
I trust in the words of the bible alone and rely on the Holy Spirits guidence to the truth.
Joh 14:26 But the Comforter,which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
My friend, I have no beef with your views, it is something that we both have choices in.
Quote by AJ
"like the story of the apple, in the garden, a simple picture without understanding.
The only thing understood is, don't eat or you'll die."
The spiritual message here is if the soul becomes wayward and does partake of the knowledge of tree of good and evil, while meanwhile said 'knowledge' is instilled in us by parental figures as well as eclesiaticals, how can we not know (partake) good from evil, we could manifest the spirit within us more easily, without a battle. Whether we want to or not... the experience of our elders, and those in-the-know... has been taught us as values, morals and scrupples pretty much from the time we could speak, so the batlle between this world and Gods world rages inside each of us, like the Cherokee chiefs story with his grandson about the Two Wolves.
Nay, It is more an admonishment to suspend judgement of others from a purely egotistical point of view. And assume the garment of the Spirit http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Las...(Michelangelo) so that Spirit has a chance to manifest in us, through us, and have a presence with us, in our everyday interactions with others, thereby creating a Heaven of sorts on Earth, which is Gods Will and not my ego's "own". Ego partakes of the sweet and the fruits of this realm, The Tree of Life. Ego control us by our urges, desires and emotions. "I" will be happy when I get more money, prestige, a better paying job, a new house, car, wife, etc. Ego is never satisfied! Always more more more.Like a corrot in front of a jackass we follow it blindly and more times that not without check. If we want to manifest spirit in our lives we have to de-throne this tyrrant who has assumed control of our minds. And put the rightful selfless Lord in the Tyrrant's place, His Gods, rightful station. The play of Consciousness is just that, a play, and all the world is its stage.
This is Heaven on Earth... if we ake it that way, if we don't... then of course, it can be hell.
We need not wait for the harbiger of death to awaken to this truth, it is known in other circles as the Awakening (of the Spirit),
and with Gods grace and a litle effort on our part we can awaken to this Self-realization, this re-membering of the Spirit, before the demise of the mind/body organism.
And, I respect your view as well.
If "religions" cannot bring mankind together...what's the point?
Last edited by Ocean Drifter; 02-09-2010 at 12:02 PM..
Quote by AJ
"like the story of the apple, in the garden, a simple picture without understanding.
Quote:
Quote Ocean Drifter "The only thing understood is, don't eat or you'll die."
You see, that your not seeing it at all?
The tree of knowledge is what we were subjected to, otherwise we would have never died.
And died without having knowledge of good and evil.
Now tell me if a baby born has knowledge of good and evil?
At what time of the baby's life does it begin to ingest the fruits of that tree?
And after ingesting of the fruit of that tree, at what point does that child become it's own entity? (Like making a choice between good and evil)
At that point, death is attained.
As you well quoted: "don't eat or you'll die."
But we all eat and we all die. (Spiritually and physically)
Hence: Luk 19:10 For the Son of man is cometo seek and to savethat which was lost.
Therefore, by necessity, that which was lost, needed reviving, brought back to life.
Hence: Eze 34:16 I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up that which was broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment.
That is God's doing, the seeking,of the driven away, the broken, the sick and consuming with His love the fat and the strong with Judgment upon mankind as one man; that man whose judgment is the world sins, is Jesus.
If God subjected us to vanity, then it is by Him who will also subject us in hope.
All the part we play in this whole existence is the subjection of and what in hope we do with it.
Other than that, what one sows, that shall we reap.
Blessings, AJ
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*Namaste`
I'm sure you see the point here AJ?