Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Dear Mike, Jesus never used the word "eternal." He always used the word "aionios" when attached to punishment. If He wanted us to know the punishment would be never ending He would have used the word: aperantos. All aionios means (being an adjective) is telling us of that which pertains to the eon(s). So the punishment can't be eternal.
"Hell" is not the word Christ used. He used "Gehenna." Gehenna, being the trash dump outside jerusalem can't be eternal because it will be done away with when the earth is destroyed. The new earth won't have a Gehenna on it. Also, did not Jesus tell His disciples if they destroy their souls they would get them back later? yes He did.
Jesus didn't speak English.
Quote:
You mean "for the ages of the ages" which are the final two ages to come. AFter that God will save all.
To the contrary. 'To the ages of the ages' eis tous aionas ton aionon, is emphatic and means forever and ever. That is eternal.
Quote:
I fail to see how this contradicts God when He said He will save all mankind in 1 Timothy 2:4-6. We believe many will be thrown into the lake of fire but it is called the second death. 1 Corinthians 15:22-28 shows that death being abolished in the future so God can be All in all.
Physical death will be no more. The Second death is eternal separation from God.
Quote:
Obviously the above is spoken in total ignorance of our stance. It is actually the doctrine of demons called eternal torment which turns people into devils, causing them to drown their children, put poison in cool-aid to kill off their church, make people commit suicide etc. etc.
Revelation 20:19 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.' God's words. Not demons.
Would you have people believe that it is demons who want people to think that they are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire? And what brilliant reason would demons have for wanting man to think that? Demons want man to think that there is no eternal punishment.
You're using the same tired old and false arguments that you have always used. They are as meaningless now as they have always been. Your claim that aionios doesn't mean eternal is false. Your claim the Gehenna only refers to the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem is false. The Bible took the name Gehenna and applied it to the lake of fire.
But Fundamentalist sent me a PM and asked me to tone down the doctrine. Imagine that. Tone down the use of Bible doctrine. Fine. I'm off this thread.
except for the part that hell keeps people in line that is not scriptural nor would true Christians believe that. Furthermore the sinful pride, jealousy etc...that leads people to the belief of eternal torment is probably true but what are your sins for leading you to the belief of universalism? or you don't have any?
I was never afraid that I might go to hell when I began to investigate this issue but a person I loved more then myself, I guess something like that came not in your mind?
When I almost converted to Islam, I had almost excepted the idea of everlasting torment, but I believed only a few might be in danger of it, and only the worst blasphemers and that God's mercy would in the end be greater than His desire for vengeance.
Well, I realized that no man can be righteous in God's sight on his own and deserves eternal death (i.e. annihilation), but I'm convinced anyway that the bible teaches the salvation of all rational beings that ever existed.
If I were only afraid about my own sins, I could listen to Mike555 that if I ever believed once in my life in Jesus and would do afterwards whatever I want and still be saved to eternity, such a view I consider much more dangerous than universalism.
Quote:
Jesus didn't speak English.
now imagine if Jesus spoke Hebrew or Aramaic, there was even no word that meant "endless" in this languages
Sparrow thank you for your beautiful, heartfelt response and really don't have much to respond except for one thing. Are you saying, that you are more loving and faithful than EVERY Christian that believes in eternal torment, if not then why don't they believe in universalism as well?
Hi there Fundamentalist...
I already said that those who have made this journey to understanding this beautiful truth NOW are not different from those who will know it later. and that we are ALL brothers and sisters and each one of us is VITAL to the whole family of God. What must happen before this truth is revealed is that a person's heart is prepared for it. Certain things MUST happen. I do not believe that I am necessarily MORE loving or MORE faithful but I DO believe that God has revealed His perfect love to me. The love that HAS NO FEAR in it. I DO believe that GOD has cast out that FEAR that CONCEALED the truth of His magnificent love. There is NO FEAR in Perfect Love. Whose Love is PERFECT? GOD's LOVE is the only answer to that question. Again...there are MANY in this world who think that Love is just a frilly, flowery, nice little word that carries little strength. But LOVE is the MOST POWERFUL thing in this universe. Look at the cross, and hear Christ's request to the Father..."Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Love is what TRANSFORMS. It is the ONLY that that TRANSFORMS A HEART. It is the ONLY thing that is capable of stopping evil in it's tracks. GOD IS LOVE.
You asked if I think that I am more loving, and I said no... however I do believe that yes, my heart HAS been EXPANDED by Him. And I DO believe that my FAITH in Him is absolutely different than those who believe in eternal torment. It is different only because He has allowed me to see the bigger picture of His love, and I have FULL UNWAVERING FAITH...IN HIS LOVE.
The reason there IS A difference... is that everything falls into place.
There is no shaving off puzzle pieces and jamming them in to fit the puzzle. All puzzle pieces fit neatly into place
There is NO Hypocrisy.
There is no "God is love... BUT..."
Like I said... God's two commands are the keys. He gave us these commands for a reason. and God will eventually walk us ALL through the fires that are necessary in order to see His plan. ALL of us.
God's fire is a refining fire. Only destroying in us what NEEDS to be destroyed. ALL will go through this. ALL.
Murderers will not enter the kingdom of God.
Liars, Adulterers, etc. etc. WILL NOT enter the kingdom of God.
This IS GOOD NEWS.
God's LOVE will eventually transform every human soul.
In HIS timing for HIS glory.
peace.
By the way I will add this. Your main question of whether I think I am MORE loving... what you have to understand fundamentalist is that it is not ME. It is Christ's LOVE being EXPANDED in my own little, small heart. This isn't about ME. It's about HIS love pushing out the walls of my heart and making ever more and more room for HIS love to enter. I think this is what you fail to understand what I am saying and maybe why you are maybe thinking that I am inferring that I am ABOVE another brother. I most certainly AM NOT. It's not me, it's not MY heart, brother... It's HIS beautiful heart expanding my own. I hope that perhaps clarifed things a little better. Peace to you.
Which is exactly my point. He never said "hell." He said "Gehenna" which is perfectly transliterated as "Gehenna" in English just as "Christos" is transliterated as "Christ" in Eglish, "Baptizo" is transliterated as "baptize" in English.
Quote:
To the contrary. 'To the ages of the ages' eis tous aionas ton aionon, is emphatic and means forever and ever. That is eternal.
To the contrary, "to the ages of the ages" eis tous aionas ton aionon, can't possibly mean "for ever and ever" since both "aionas" and "aionon" are plural. You'd have to say "for the evers of the evers" to be legit. If "for ever" is eternal then how can there be another "and ever" come later?
Quote:
Physical death will be no more. The Second death is eternal separation from God.
Actually the second death is eonian separation from God or age-during as some would bibles have it. It can't be eternal separation because death will be abolished and God will be All in all in the future. Or do you just get a kick out of contradicting God?
Quote:
Revelation 20:19 '...and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.' God's words. Not demons.
Sorry, but God never spoke English back then. Again, to be linguistically correct to the Greek you'd have to say "for the evers of the evers." Good luck with that.
Quote:
Would you have people believe that it is demons who want people to think that they are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire? And what brilliant reason would demons have for wanting man to think that? Demons want man to think that there is no eternal punishment.
Absolutely it is demons that want people to think they will spend eternity in the lake of fire. They don't want God nor Christ to be all victorious. I'll go as far as saying people who teach such nonsense are Satan worshippers for they worship him by their teachings. They don't necessarily have to bow down to him.
Quote:
You're using the same tired old and false arguments that you have always used. They are as meaningless now as they have always been. Your claim that aionios doesn't mean eternal is false. Your claim the Gehenna only refers to the garbage dump outside of Jerusalem is false. The Bible took the name Gehenna and applied it to the lake of fire.
False. Gehenna comes 1000 years before the lake of fire. After the earth is destroyed then the lake of fire comes. Try to learn something.
Quote:
But Fundamentalist sent me a PM and asked me to tone down the doctrine. Imagine that. Tone down the use of Bible doctrine. Fine. I'm off this thread.
Maybe he wants you to tone down doctrines of demons. It makes God and Christ look awefully bad to teach they are the biggest losers in the universe.
I already said that those who have made this journey to understanding this beautiful truth NOW are not different from those who will know it later. and that we are ALL brothers and sisters and each one of us is VITAL to the whole family of God. What must happen before this truth is revealed is that a person's heart is prepared for it. Certain things MUST happen. I do not believe that I am necessarily MORE loving or MORE faithful but I DO believe that God has revealed His perfect love to me. The love that HAS NO FEAR in it. I DO believe that GOD has cast out that FEAR that CONCEALED the truth of His magnificent love. There is NO FEAR in Perfect Love. Whose Love is PERFECT? GOD's LOVE is the only answer to that question. Again...there are MANY in this world who think that Love is just a frilly, flowery, nice little word that carries little strength. But LOVE is the MOST POWERFUL thing in this universe. Look at the cross, and hear Christ's request to the Father..."Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Love is what TRANSFORMS. It is the ONLY that that TRANSFORMS A HEART. It is the ONLY thing that is capable of stopping evil in it's tracks. GOD IS LOVE.
You asked if I think that I am more loving, and I said no... however I do believe that yes, my heart HAS been EXPANDED by Him. And I DO believe that my FAITH in Him is absolutely different than those who believe in eternal torment. It is different only because He has allowed me to see the bigger picture of His love, and I have FULL UNWAVERING FAITH...IN HIS LOVE.
The reason there IS A difference... is that everything falls into place.
There is no shaving off puzzle pieces and jamming them in to fit the puzzle. All puzzle pieces fit neatly into place
There is NO Hypocrisy.
There is no "God is love... BUT..."
Like I said... God's two commands are the keys. He gave us these commands for a reason. and God will eventually walk us ALL through the fires that are necessary in order to see His plan. ALL of us.
God's fire is a refining fire. Only destroying in us what NEEDS to be destroyed. ALL will go through this. ALL.
Murderers will not enter the kingdom of God.
Liars, Adulterers, etc. etc. WILL NOT enter the kingdom of God.
This IS GOOD NEWS.
God's LOVE will eventually transform every human soul.
In HIS timing for HIS glory.
peace.
Sparrow is correct.
Take the test and try this. Spend a great deal of your time and energy on #1 & #2 and less time in debate... Pray to God for his Love and you too shall feel the transformation of your soul. This is the KEY. It is simple and it is what Jesus spoke of and told us to do. This is SIMPLE in that all Christians who all have different belief systems can follow Jesus in what he asked of us instead of always fighting and debating with each other. Constant fighting and debating takes us away from #1 and #2 and takes us away from which we should be most focused.
I already said that those who have made this journey to understanding this beautiful truth NOW are not different from those who will know it later. and that we are ALL brothers and sisters and each one of us is VITAL to the whole family of God. What must happen before this truth is revealed is that a person's heart is prepared for it. Certain things MUST happen. I do not believe that I am necessarily MORE loving or MORE faithful but I DO believe that God has revealed His perfect love to me..
I am glad you admitted that but others who believe in eternal torment have said the same. So who is right? again it is back to a basic understanding of scripture and not fear, or who's more loving. It is about how an individual understands scripture just like many of your fellow universalist do not believe Jesus is God in their understanding of scripture.
You have a real bad habit of calling people names. I severely suggest you pray about that habit...so in your understanding of the hell doctrine you liken Christians who believe in hell as Pharisees and yourself as a Jesus and the disciples? WOW! that is a bit self righteous.
That is true that the majority doesn't always mean being right but it doesn't mean they are wrong either and frankly doesn't really help your case.
So you think the majority of true Christians will want to kill you..again WOW! You have a severe self righteous thing going on my friend.
First of all you lie when you say I call people names. Please desist from further lying about a fellow brother in Christ.
I never said the majority of Christians want to kill me. I said that the majority wanted to kill Christ in His day and the majority today think they are doing God service by teaching eternal torment. Try to learn differences before spouting ignorance.
I'd rather have a self-righteous thing going then to be like you and your ilk who think it is O.K. to make God and Christ look like a couple of bozos by your teaching that they might get their throusands but Satan his billions thus making Satan look far more wise and more powerful than God and Christ.
I said, that out of love but then you throw in my face, no one is perfect and you have a serious anger problem in your response. Instead of you listening and maybe even taking into consideration that name you used hurts and find very demeaning, you react and take it personal. You need to spiritually mature more in this department my friend.
If calling a group of Christians who believe in eternal hell as "Christian hellers" is calling them names then you have a reality problem. It is no worse then calling those who don't believe in eternal hell "Christians Universalists."
I think you have a serious anger problem in your responses. You need to spiritually mature in this department my friend.
I re-read my original post in this thread and I did in fact state that christian hellers want to kill us. That was wrong. They just want to character assassinate us
I am glad you admitted that but others who believe in eternal torment have said the same. So who is right? again it is back to a basic understanding of scripture and not fear, or who's more loving. It is about how an individual understands scripture just like many of your fellow universalist do not believe Jesus is God in their understanding of scripture.
It is NOT about who is more loving. or who is right.
It is about GOD'S LOVE being expanded in our heart.
After all that I have said... your focus is a bit revealing.
I would follow SisterKat's advice.
I am not into debating endlessly... it is futility to me.
You are where you need to be right now, as am I.
Perhaps if we all focused a little more on HIS love and less on the beliefs of each other, we'd all be better off.
It is NOT about who is more loving. or who is right.
It is about GOD'S LOVE being expanded in our heart.
After all that I have said... your focus is a bit revealing.
I would follow SisterKat's advice.
I am not into debating endlessly... it is futility to me.
You are where you need to be right now, as am I.
Perhaps if we all focused a little more on HIS love and less on the beliefs of each other, we'd all be better off.
peace...
Sparrow you are absolutely right , it's our focus . When we become God conscious we become aware of his heart towards ourselves and mankind and life really is life and peace .
When we are sin conscious we are cannot help but be hard on ourselves as well as others to the point where we lose our peace and are unable to extend it to others.
8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things. 9 The things which you learned and received and heard and saw in me, these do, and the God of peace will be with you.
Set you affections affections on things above
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
