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No they are not punished . . . but there are consequences (not eternal) for their failures . . . as always . . . and they will be proportionate to the degree of failure . . . not the same for everybody.
1. Are you saying that you believe that those who reject Christ will be annihilated?
I have to say that could well be a possibility. If all possibilities are conjecture and supposition, then they are all equally valid. Consider what it would be if you read the NT with LIFE in mind not death.
For example, if you murder your wife in rage you face prison. You are punished. Even if you don't get caught you are slowly driven insane by the knowledge of what you have done. Take Cain and Abel for example. So if you are punished in life for your wrongdoings (we don't correlate even the half of how it works) then you die.. what is left to punish?
Conversely, if you love your neighbor as yourself all your life your reward is a loving caring abundant life. What would you do with a reward after death? A heavenly trophy case?
So really I cannot say what happens after I die. I try not to die because that would end this life I love so much. Some religions make it a bad thing to love your life but that is what we are here to do, right? Live life. Love your God and your neighbor as yourself.
Imagine if everyone in the world loved their neighbor as themselves...
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2. I'm wondering what the official view of universalism is. If all are to be saved, how do the wicked, who rejected Christ and refused to repent their entire lives, receive salvation after death?
I cannot say what the official view of universalism is as I just recently was told that I am one. However, I think of it two ways:
Eternal torture/damnation theory: Jesus is the gate to the kingdom. Jesus collects faith. If you don't have faith you don't get in AND you burn in a fiery lake for the rest of your future or forever which ever is longest.
Christian Universal Salvation: Jesus is the gate to the kingdom. Jesus collects the dirty. He washes your feet or hands or whole body, whatever is necessary (this may be painful??) then you are in the kingdom.
My take anyway and not at all official.
John 13:8 "No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet." Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."
Last edited by katjonjj; 02-07-2010 at 09:27 PM..
Reason: reminded me of a verse so I posted it...
Eternal means "afterlife" -- a dead person's life -- it's bull.
Have you seen some people curse others? Right, some people in the world have moral problems. So why do they use lies such as "God", "afterlife"? Evil desires -- controlling people ("if you don't believe it, you go to hell"), monetary gains (make faithful pay for religion), political motives (war, terrorism ...) ... that's what religion is.
Christian Universal Salvation: Jesus is the gate to the kingdom. Jesus collects the dirty. He washes your feet or hands or whole body, whatever is necessary (this may be painful??) then you are in the kingdom.
Does Christ do this washing through the faith of the believer?
Why are the people mentioned in Rev. 21:8 sent to the lake that burns with fire and brimstone? ...
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Do you think that this is a purifying fire, removing their sins?
Does Christ do this washing through the faith of the believer?
Why are the people mentioned in Rev. 21:8 sent to the lake that burns with fire and brimstone? ...
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
Do you think that this is a purifying fire, removing their sins?
Jremy,
The idea of Divine purification comes from a similar text such as this one:
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The Lake of Fire and Brimstone signifies a fire burning with brimstone; the word 'brimstone' or sulphur defines the character of the fire. The Greek word THEION translated 'brimstone' is exactly the same word THEION which means 'divine.' (emphasis mine) Sulphur was sacred to the deity among the ancient Greeks; and was used to fumigate, to purify, and to cleanse and consecrate to the deity; for this purpose they burned it in their incense. In Homer's Iliad (16:228), one is spoken of as purifying a goblet with fire and brimstone. The verb derived from THEION is THEIOO, which means to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god (See Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon, 1897 Edition). To any Greek, or any trained in the Greek language, a 'lake of fire and brimstone' would mean a 'lake of divine purification.' The idea of judgment need not be excluded. Divine purification and divine consecration are the plain meaning in ancient Greek. In the ordinary explanation, this fundamental meaning of the word is entirely left out, and nothing but eternal torment is associated with it.”
and here:
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Also, the Greek word for torment in the verse above is basanizo. According to Strong’s number G928, the primary meaning of basanizo is “to test (metals) by the touchstone, which is a black siliceous stone used to test the purity of gold or silver by the colour of the streak produced on it by rubbing it with either metal”.
All of these three Greek words:
aion for an age with a definite duration having both a beginning and an end,
theion for brimstone indicating divine purifying power,
basanizo for its characteristic of testing purity,
clearly proves that the purpose of the Lake of Fire is to purify and refine Satan and the fallen angels rather than to endlessly torture them. Angels were created to be ministering spirits to God and men, and not to be kept in a prison of spiritual darkness forever. (Hebrews 1:14)
God’s power, His love, and His justice will ensure that Satan and the fallen angels will repent and be transformed back to their original holy state, which they enjoyed when they were first created. They will willingly, humbly, joyfully and thankfully minister forever like the other two-thirds of the holy angels in God’s Eternal Kingdom of the New Heaven and the New Earth.
The Eternal Kingdom of God of the New Heaven and the New Earth, where there will be no more death, no more sorrow, no more crying, no more pain and no more curse, will not be established on this earth until God has reconciled all things in heaven and all things on earth through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross. This includes the reconciliation of Satan and the fallen angels as the key scripture Colossians 1:15-20 clearly and powerfully states.
Unfortunately, Universalism completely forgets the very nature and purpose of this punishment and what it is supposed to produce.
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
The words "for ever" do not necessarily mean "without end." In fact, the Bible uses this term 56 times in connection with things which have already ended. In Exodus 21:1-6, the Hebrew servant was to serve his master "for ever," but it was obviously only as long as he lived. Hannah took her son Samuel to God's house to abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22), but she plainly limited that time to "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
The term is clearly defined in Pslam 48:14: "For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death."
The desolation of Edom was to continue "for ever and ever" (Isaiah 34:10). Christ is called "a priest for ever" in Hebrews 5:6; yet after sin is blotted out, Christ's work as a priest will end, and the saints inherit the kingdom.
According to these definitions of the term "for ever," the wicked will suffer as long as they continue to live in the fire. Then, as the Bible states, "The wicked ... shall be destroyed for ever" (Psalm 92:7, See also Malachi 4:1-3).
There is divine purification that exists in this fire, but the end result of that divine purification is in question in Universalism, that none of them are able to produce any credible defense for.
The Universalist hangs in the balance and notes:
"Since they are purified, they must be redeemed."
Does the Bible say this at all? No! It does not, but it does note that they are destroyed...completely. Annihilated. The mere fact that annihilationism is frowned upon by the church in general is interesting to say the least. It is also ambiguous the sect of Universalism in that it has multiple, if not more definitions of the destination of the wicked. Eternal Torment is lesser a degree of the real and final outcome of the purification process. You see, God is Holy, and Sin or Wicked nature cannot enter His presence. The Lake of Fire is just that, to purify the elements of that wickedness from His presence, resulting in, destruction, as the scripture clearly states.
In a nutshell, what the scripture teaches is torment, torment for the sins exhibited here on earth, and finally, destruction of those that have been not cleansed, but purified to the extent of annihilation, so that the justice is served, and the presence of the very wicked in His presence, and in the presence of the Lamb and His angels, is no more.
A true reconciliation of His creation. Leaving only the righteous in His stead.
The idea of Divine purification comes from a similar text such as this one:
and here:
Unfortunately, Universalism completely forgets the very nature and purpose of this punishment and what it is supposed to produce.
"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
The words "for ever" do not necessarily mean "without end." In fact, the Bible uses this term 56 times in connection with things which have already ended. In Exodus 21:1-6, the Hebrew servant was to serve his master "for ever," but it was obviously only as long as he lived. Hannah took her son Samuel to God's house to abide "for ever" (1 Samuel 1:22), but she plainly limited that time to "as long as he liveth" (verse 28).
The term is clearly defined in Pslam 48:14: "For this God is our God for ever and ever: he will be our guide even unto death."
The desolation of Edom was to continue "for ever and ever" (Isaiah 34:10). Christ is called "a priest for ever" in Hebrews 5:6; yet after sin is blotted out, Christ's work as a priest will end, and the saints inherit the kingdom.
According to these definitions of the term "for ever," the wicked will suffer as long as they continue to live in the fire. Then, as the Bible states, "The wicked ... shall be destroyed for ever" (Psalm 92:7, See also Malachi 4:1-3).
There is divine purification that exists in this fire, but the end result of that divine purification is in question in Universalism, that none of them are able to produce any credible defense for.
The Universalist hangs in the balance and notes:
"Since they are purified, they must be redeemed."
Does the Bible say this at all? No! It does not, but it does note that they are destroyed...completely. Annihilated. The mere fact that annihilationism is frowned upon by the church in general is interesting to say the least. It is also ambiguous the sect of Universalism in that it has multiple, if not more definitions of the destination of the wicked. Eternal Torment is lesser a degree of the real and final outcome of the purification process. You see, God is Holy, and Sin or Wicked nature cannot enter His presence. The Lake of Fire is just that, to purify the elements of that wickedness from His presence, resulting in, destruction, as the scripture clearly states.
In a nutshell, what the scripture teaches is torment, torment for the sins exhibited here on earth, and finally, destruction of those that have been not cleansed, but purified to the extent of annihilation, so that the justice is served, and the presence of the very wicked in His presence, and in the presence of the Lamb and His angels, is no more.
A true reconciliation of His creation. Leaving only the righteous in His stead.
Although I would disagree with your conclusion about annihilation, my point is to determine whether universalism amounts to another gospel. Based on what I've read on this forum, I believe that it does because it posits a means of purification from sins--in and through the Lake of Fire--that is distinct from that which Christ provides. In so doing, it holds out another means of salvation in addition to Christ. If a person's sins are not cleansed by the blood of Christ by faith in this life, then they are to be saved by this Plan B--cleansing of sin in the Lake of Fire. If that is truly what universalism teaches, then that is grounds enough to reject it as well as those who bring it. Paul said that those who bring another gospel are anathema.
Although I would disagree with your conclusion about annihilation, my point is to determine whether universalism amounts to another gospel. Based on what I've read on this forum, I believe that it does because it posits a means of purification from sins--in and through the Lake of Fire--that is distinct from that which Christ provides. In so doing, it holds out another means of salvation in addition to Christ. If a person's sins are not cleansed by the blood of Christ by faith in this life, then they are to be saved by this Plan B--cleansing of sin in the Lake of Fire. If that is truly what universalism teaches, then that is grounds enough to reject it as well as those who bring it. Paul said that those who bring another gospel are anathema.
Jremy,
That is truly what UR teaches. I never said I fully side with annihilation theology, I was just reiterating that its premise is quite extensive in scripture. Here is a breakdown of what is in New Testament scripture and their percentages:
10 texts (4%) "Gehenna"
26 (10%) to "burning up"
59 (22%) to "destruction, perdition, utter loss or ruin"
20 (8%) to "separation from God"
25 (10%) to "death in its finality" or "the second death"
108 (41%) to "unforgiven sin", where the precise consequence is not stated
15 (6%) to "anguish"
Personally, I believe in the second death, since I am a Preterist, and view the Resurrection of the dead as a past event, and those that were resurrected and not found in the book of Life suffer this death. In the Post Parousia world, which I believe we are in now, those outside the city gates suffer the same death, therefore their spirit, which is housed by the body, is dead. Whether that conveys eternal separation or annihilation, I will leave that up to God, But by no means does it in any way convey that these spirits are purified, and granted eternal life, which as you and I and many others have requested the very scripture that says such a thing, has been continuously deflected while their attempts at dealing with our requests, seem to fail time and time again without any evidence of the sort. There is no such a thing, and UR is a different gospel than what is written, as we have proved repetitively.
NOT is not NEVER, see my post concerning the "unpardonable" sin
And they shall go out and see thecorpses of the mortals who have rebelled against Me; for their worm shall not die, nor shall their fire be put out; and they shall be an object of disgust to all flesh.
(Isaiah 66:24)
the corpses of mortals - nothing, but nothing in this context implies conscious torment; but presents us a executed death penalty, it is ridiculous to interpret this passage as if here were spoken of immortal souls or that the worms are anything else but literal worms that devour corpses or limbs of dead men.
the Septuagint has:
And they shall go forth, and see the limbs (κῶλον) of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not come to an end, and their fire shall not be quenched; and they shall be a sight to all flesh.
I do not say that this passage teaches annihiliation but merely an earthly judgment as it seems to me.
Personally, I believe in the second death, since I am a Preterist, and view the Resurrection of the dead as a past event, and those that were resurrected and not found in the book of Life suffer this death.
I'd be interested in learning more about the various eschatalogical views. I'm not talking about getting into anything polemical because, in all honesty, I've never come to a conclusion myself about which eschatological view is the correct one. That places me, for the most part, in a position of neutrality in which I'd be open to what you have to say. You could show me the Scriptures that defend your view, and then I could take it in and, if other Scriptures come to my mind, bring them in for examination--again, not as a debate.
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