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Old 01-24-2010, 11:11 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,041,898 times
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Alabama great post and saves me from responding .

Mike you are ignoring the fact that Jesus said it's finished and that Jesus entered in to the most Holy place with his own blood

11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here,[b] he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

Did you noticed it says Having obtained eternal redemption ?

It's accomplished before you even uttered i believe

Last edited by pcamps; 01-24-2010 at 11:24 AM..

 
Old 01-24-2010, 11:22 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 6,180,583 times
Reputation: 821
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
If you accept Christ, then reject Him, you never accepted Him truly.
Whether you did or didn't is irrelevant....if you reject him, you are lost...but Mike seems to think you can reject him after believing in him and still be saved....that is a crock....Jesus said so.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Prattville, Alabama
4,883 posts, read 6,180,583 times
Reputation: 821
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks View Post
YAY!
So you believe one must accept Christ in this life to be saved forever and have eternal life?
Now if I can just get you to believe Christ is God, but that is really up to Him now isn't it?

But also, once you are saved, truly, you can never be "unsaved". IMO of course
This is where I and Jesus disagree with you....for he clearly says that you can:

If you don't abide
If you aren't faithful and obedient
If you don't repent
If you don't produce fruit
If you aren't forgiving
If you aren't merciful
etc....

We are called to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow in his footsteps....if we don't do this, we are lost....no matter how much we think we are saved....this is the cost we have to pay to follow Jesus and it is high....not cheap, easy or free.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 11:34 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,881 posts, read 26,100,556 times
Reputation: 16011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
The faith that you speak of is not Gospel faith given by the Spirit, but rather faith of the flesh. There is a great difference between the two. Gospel faith from the Spirit looks to Christ alone as being the only deciding factor in the sinner's justification before God. The faith of the flesh is an effort before God to justify itself. But the scriptures do not recognize faith as being a good faith effort of man (otherwise boasting is possible). But rather the scriptures teach of a heavenly faith, a faith from the Spirit, a gift from God that receives the promises of God.

A major doctrinal difference here. Faith, as well as salvation, are both gifts from God. So also is repentance that proceeds it.

Heb 12:2 looking to the author and perfecter of faith--Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him--did endure a cross,

Eph 2:8 for by grace ye are having been saved, through faith, and this not of you--of God the gift,
Eph 2:9 not of works, that no one may boast;
We're all growing, and praise God for it. But I have to admit, you're explaining the Gospel much better .

Agreed, and hopefully for the better. We should never be to proud to learn more, even if we have to fine tune our doctrines from time to time. I do it also. We're all sinners, and none of us see truth perfectly.

Sure it is. So is your pride...LOL
Knock it off with the personal attacks.

Quote:

Subjectively speaking, agreed. And I've never argued against this. But objectively speaking, the legal and forensic basis for our justification before God, you're wrong. The basis of our Justification before God is Christ alone. I won't list all the reasons for why it is so, but I'll post an excellent article (from a reformed perspective) that describes it fully here:
Of course basis of our justification before GOD is Christ alone. You have absolutely no comprehension of anything that I have posted. How many times have I said that the believer is justified on the basis of the work of Christ on the Cross.

Quote:
http://www.letgodbetrue.com/bible/sa...rist-alone.pdf

Again, a major difference between what Christ accomplished for us and the sinner receiving it.

Yes I did, and still do admit it. What I do not claim to know is how this mystery will ultimately come about and be revealed, except for it being by the power and grace of God, who does will it so.

Joh 3:7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
Joh 3:8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'

But I also know that we're not to walk by sight or sound, but rather by faith:

2Co 5:7 for through faith we walk, not through sight--

The scriptures are plentiful for it's support, which we should not deny out of pride, or because of other doctrines that appear on the surface (by sight) to disagree with it:

It's basis, or foundation, is established in the eternal decrees of God. This much, I'm fully persuaded and convinced of:

Rom 8:30 and whom He did fore-appoint, these also He did call; and whom He did call, these also He declared righteous; and whom He declared righteous, these also He did glorify.

It's accomplishment is in Christ who calls and also dies for the sinner, the impious ones. These are the called:

Mat 9:13 but having gone, learn ye what is, Kindness I will, and not sacrifice, for I did not come to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

Luk 5:32 I came not to call righteous men, but sinners, to reformation.'

Luk 24:47 and reformation and remission of sins to be proclaimed in his name to all the nations, beginning from Jerusalem:

Rom 5:6 For in our being still ailing, Christ in due time did die for the impious;

Rom 3:22 and the righteousness of God is through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, --for there is no difference,
Rom 3:23 for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God--
Rom 3:24 being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Rom 5:18 So, then, as through one offence to all men it is to condemnation, so also through one declaration of `Righteous' it is to all men to justification of life;

The objective truth of the sinner's Justification proclaimed in the Gospel, is spoken here:

2Co 5:19 how that God was in Christ--a world reconciling to Himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses; and having put in us the word of the reconciliation,

The subjective truth of the sinner's Justification, to know by faith, embrace and receive it, is spoken here:

2Co 5:20 in behalf of Christ, then, we are ambassadors, as if God were calling through us, we beseech, in behalf of Christ, `Be ye reconciled to God;'

It's a wonderful truth that I'm only starting to understand and appreciate. The scriptures teach it, though perhaps not as clearly as other doctrines, but I do believe it. And it will, I also believe, in time be revealed to all, to the glory of God:

1Ti 2:4 who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;
1Ti 2:5 for one is God, one also is mediator of God and of men, the man Christ Jesus,
1Ti 2:6 who did give himself a ransom for all--the testimony in its own times--
Faith does not come from God. Faith is a response to the Gospel. We are commanded to have faith. Every time you see the word 'believe' that means to have faith. It is the responsibility of man to respond to the word of God with faith.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 11:35 AM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,919,368 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Following is the doctrine of justification compiled by Robert B. Thieme, Jr.

quote
Doctrine of Justification.

1) Definition: Justification means ''vindication''; therefore, it is the judicial act of God whereby He imputes His righteousness to the new believer at the point of salvation, thereby vindicating or justifying him.

2) The meaning is derived from three Greek words:

a. DIKAIOO: ''to justify, to vindicate.''
b. DIKAIOSOS: ''justification, vindication.''
c. DIKAIOMA: an act of acquittal or justification.
Do you see his error? The definition given is correct, but this is speaking of the forensic and judicial act of God, not the reckoning of it to the believer's account.

The declaration of righteous, made by God, is judicial and is based upon Christ's work alone at the cross. It is this judicial pronouncement by God that allows the sinner's account to be reckoned clear of debt, and to be imputed with Christ's righteousness, through faith.

Until you (or Robert Thieme for that matter) understands this correctly, you'll not understand Justification, what Luther came to know by the grace of God, and what the Protestant Reformation has been proclaiming for the last 500 years.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 12:03 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,881 posts, read 26,100,556 times
Reputation: 16011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
Do you see his error? The definition given is correct, but this is speaking of the forensic and judicial act of God, not the reckoning of it to the believer's account.

The declaration of righteous, made by God, is judicial and is based upon Christ's work alone at the cross. It is this judicial pronouncement by God that allows the sinner's account to be reckoned clear of debt, and to be imputed with Christ's righteousness, through faith.

Until you (or Robert Thieme for that matter) understands this correctly, you'll not understand Justification, what Luther came to know by the grace of God, and what the Protestant Reformation has been proclaiming for the last 500 years.
It is you who don't understand it correctly. The believer is not declared righteous, the believer is IMPUTED with God's own righteousness and Declared JUSTIFIED on the basis of that righteousness. God sees His righteousness when He looks at the believer. Not the believers human righteousness. And of course that imputation of divine righteousness is judicial.

Robert Thieme is in Heaven now and understands it better than ever. Now before you start contradicting one of the greatest theologians of the twentieth century you would do well to learn what he taught.


And as for Martin Luther, he was a calvinist. Calvinism is a heresy.

I asked you in another post. Didn't you some time ago on another thread admit that you are a universalist? I seem to remember you saying that you were one.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 12:26 PM
 
257 posts, read 441,493 times
Reputation: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
This is where I and Jesus disagree with you....for he clearly says that you can:

If you don't abide
If you aren't faithful and obedient
If you don't repent
If you don't produce fruit
If you aren't forgiving
If you aren't merciful
etc....

We are called to pick up our cross, deny ourselves and follow in his footsteps....if we don't do this, we are lost....no matter how much we think we are saved....this is the cost we have to pay to follow Jesus and it is high....not cheap, easy or free.
I agree with what you are saying here. The writtings of the Apostle Paul also agree with what you are saying here. In fact, in Philippians, Paul stresses that he did not think he had already recieved completed salvation. He stressed that he was not taking confidence simply in what he had been given theretofore, but that he retained all that GOD had done for him before, but that he pressed ownward in order to finish the course and recieve the prize for those faithful until the end.

Paul would not agree with what Mike555 has said in the op. In Romans he even wrote to the Church. "If you live according to the flesh, you will die".

In edit: Salvation is totally a gift from GOD and should never be thought of as a result of our own doing. But we must be faithful with the gifts GOD has given us until the end. It is all by His grace.

Last edited by ForHimByHim; 01-24-2010 at 12:46 PM..
 
Old 01-24-2010, 12:52 PM
 
2,526 posts, read 2,919,368 times
Reputation: 336
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
It is you who don't understand it correctly. The believer is not declared righteous, the believer is IMPUTED with God's own righteousness and Declared JUSTIFIED on the basis of that righteousness. God sees His righteousness when He looks at the believer. Not the believers human righteousness. And of course that imputation of divine righteousness is judicial.
The sinner is declared righteous by God at the cross my friend. That is the judicial (objective) declaration of God, as scripture shows:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

This is based upon the merit's of Christ's work alone, whereby God is declaring righteous the impious:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

The believer in faith is reckoned to righteousness (God's or Christ's righteousness, it's the same):

Rom 4:21 and having been fully persuaded that what He hath promised He is able also to do:
Rom 4:22 wherefore also it was reckoned to him to righteousness.
Rom 4:23 And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him,
Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,

1Co 1:30 and of Him ye--ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption,

Quote:
Robert Thieme is in Heaven now and understands it better than ever. Now before you start contradicting one of the greatest theologians of the twentieth century you would do well to learn what he taught.

And as for Martin Luther, he was a calvinist. Calvinism is a heresy.
Martin Luther was not a Calvinist my friend. Martin Luther broke from the Catholic Church in 1517 to declare Christ's work alone that justifies. Luther was excommunicated from the Church in 1521.

Calvin, on the other hand, was born in 1509 (eight years old at the time Luther broke from Rome), and did not write his Institutes until the age of 26 (in 1536), six years after breaking away from the Catholic Church in 1530, thirteen years after Luther did and nine years after Luther's excommunication. Like Luther however, Calvin did so to proclaim the Gospel of Christ.

If anything, Calvin followed Luther in faith, and the breaking away from Rome, and so began the Protest Reformation. Calvin emphasized predestination as the underlying basis of our justification before God, rather than at the cross where it was objectively declared by God, as proclaimed by Luther.

Quote:
I asked you in another post. Didn't you some time ago on another thread admit that you are a universalist? I seem to remember you saying that you were one.
The proclamation of the Gospel is universal and so is what it accomplished. I posted it earlier giving scriptural support for it. It was all scriptural, so there is little to debate. You even copied it in a reply.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 04:25 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,881 posts, read 26,100,556 times
Reputation: 16011
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForHimByHim View Post
I agree with what you are saying here. The writtings of the Apostle Paul also agree with what you are saying here. In fact, in Philippians, Paul stresses that he did not think he had already recieved completed salvation. He stressed that he was not taking confidence simply in what he had been given theretofore, but that he retained all that GOD had done for him before, but that he pressed ownward in order to finish the course and recieve the prize for those faithful until the end.
No. The resurrection of the body is still future. But the salvation of the soul occurs at the moment of faith in Christ. Ultimate sanctification of the believer occurs at the resurrection of the body. Positional sanctification occurs at the moment of faith in Christ. Experiential sanctification in time is a matter of spiritual growth.

The prize that Paul is talking about are the eternal rewards given to the believer who has spiritual production in his life as a believer. The rewards given at the judgment seat of Christ for spiritual growth. (1 Cor. 3:12-15; 2 Cor. 5:10; Romans 14:10-12)



Quote:
Paul would not agree with what Mike555 has said in the op. In Romans he even wrote to the Church. "If you live according to the flesh, you will die".

In edit: Salvation is totally a gift from GOD and should never be thought of as a result of our own doing. But we must be faithful with the gifts GOD has given us until the end. It is all by His grace.

The Bible recognizes seven categories of death.

1) Spiritual death Rom. 5:12, 6:23, 1 Cor. 2:14 Separation from God in time.

2) Physical death Matt. 8:22, 2 Cor. 5:8 Death of the body

3) Temporal death Rom. 8:6, Eph 5:14-18; 1 Tim. 5:6 The believer out of fellowship and under the control of his old sin nature.

4) Positional death Rom. 6:6-14, Col. 3:3 Position in Adam. In Adam, all die.

5) The Second death Rev. 20:12-15 Spiritual death perpetuated through eternity. Eternal separation from God.

6) Operational death 1 Cor 3:14-15, James 2:26 No spiritual production. No fruit.

7) Sexual death Rom. 4:17-21, Heb. 11:12 Self explanatory.

Paul is talking about temporal death. Being out of fellowship. Not being filled with the Holy Spirit but being under the control of the old sin nature. This happens every time a believer sins. The means of restoration to fellowship is the principle of 1 John 1:9. Simply name the sin to God.

Eph. 5:14-18 and 1 Tim. 5:6 should give you a better understanding of it.

And please don't anyone ask where is the word 'temporal' death found in the Bible. It is a technical theological term for what is described in the Bible.

Last edited by Michael Way; 01-24-2010 at 05:43 PM..
 
Old 01-24-2010, 05:51 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,881 posts, read 26,100,556 times
Reputation: 16011
Quote:
Originally Posted by AlabamaStorm View Post
The sinner is declared righteous by God at the cross my friend. That is the judicial (objective) declaration of God, as scripture shows:

Rom 4:25 who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Rom 5:9 much more, then, having been declared righteous now in his blood, we shall be saved through him from the wrath;

This is based upon the merit's of Christ's work alone, whereby God is declaring righteous the impious:

Rom 4:5 and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the impious, his faith is reckoned--to righteousness:

The believer in faith is reckoned to righteousness (God's or Christ's righteousness, it's the same):

Rom 4:21 and having been fully persuaded that what He hath promised He is able also to do:
Rom 4:22 wherefore also it was reckoned to him to righteousness.
Rom 4:23 And it was not written on his account alone, that it was reckoned to him,
Rom 4:24 but also on ours, to whom it is about to be reckoned--to us believing on Him who did raise up Jesus our Lord out of the dead,

1Co 1:30 and of Him ye--ye are in Christ Jesus, who became to us from God wisdom, righteousness also, and sanctification, and redemption,

Martin Luther was not a Calvinist my friend. Martin Luther broke from the Catholic Church in 1517 to declare Christ's work alone that justifies. Luther was excommunicated from the Church in 1521.

Calvin, on the other hand, was born in 1509 (eight years old at the time Luther broke from Rome), and did not write his Institutes until the age of 26 (in 1536), six years after breaking away from the Catholic Church in 1530, thirteen years after Luther did and nine years after Luther's excommunication. Like Luther however, Calvin did so to proclaim the Gospel of Christ.

If anything, Calvin followed Luther in faith, and the breaking away from Rome, and so began the Protest Reformation. Calvin emphasized predestination as the underlying basis of our justification before God, rather than at the cross where it was objectively declared by God, as proclaimed by Luther.

The proclamation of the Gospel is universal and so is what it accomplished. I posted it earlier giving scriptural support for it. It was all scriptural, so there is little to debate. You even copied it in a reply.
I don't have the best memory.

So, you're saying that you are a universalist. Okay. No need for me to spend any more time on you.
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