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Old 01-24-2010, 05:52 PM
 
257 posts, read 253,503 times
Reputation: 61

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Hi Mike555,

I embrace the forever promises of GOD. His promises give us full assurance and secure confidence. But His promises also warn us about falling prey to false gospels, as in Galatians. Some teach that Salvation is started and finished in a believers life in a moment. That at that moment their eternal future is in the bag and regardless of anything in the future, they are OSAS. I can't find that doctrine anywhere in the scriptures. And I surely can't see how someone could really be a Christian, and be absent of faith.

This is not a judgement about you personally. I simply see a strong scriptural basis for complete confidence in CHRIST, while simultaneously being mindful of our GOD given responsibility to continue to follow CHRIST. It's all by His grace, but we should be careful not to in any way walk away from His grace.

 
Old 01-24-2010, 06:37 PM
 
12,880 posts, read 6,956,045 times
Reputation: 2387
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForHimByHim View Post
Hi Mike555,

I embrace the forever promises of GOD. His promises give us full assurance and secure confidence. But His promises also warn us about falling prey to false gospels, as in Galatians. Some teach that Salvation is started and finished in a believers life in a moment. That at that moment their eternal future is in the bag and regardless of anything in the future, they are OSAS. I can't find that doctrine anywhere in the scriptures. And I surely can't see how someone could really be a Christian, and be absent of faith.

This is not a judgement about you personally. I simply see a strong scriptural basis for complete confidence in CHRIST, while simultaneously being mindful of our GOD given responsibility to continue to follow CHRIST. It's all by His grace, but we should be careful not to in any way walk away from His grace.
People can certainly lose their faith. Some peoples faith is weak. A personal tragedy; anger or resentment related to that tragedy can cause some people who had faith in Christ to lose that faith. But they don't lose their salvation. I gave some very good links but I'll give two of them again. I don't know if you already looked at them or not.

Eternal Security - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ


A doctrine is arrived at by all the scriptures and principles that are pertinent to it. God's policy toward man is grace. Grace is everything that God is free to do for man on the basis of the Cross. It's all about what God has done to provide salvation. Not what we do or don't do. All that a person has to 'do' to become eternally saved is to (after understanding the issue) make a decision to place his trust in Christ for salvation. After that one initial moment of faith you are saved and it's out of your hands. Certainly we are to advance spiritually after we are saved. Of course God commands the believer to grow up. But if he doesn't, God doesn't take away his eternal salvation. God doesn't take back any of the 40 grace gifts He gave the believer at the moment of salvation. Those 40 gifts are the subject of the second link. The disobedient believer only comes under divine discpline in time and can lose eternal rewards. But he does not come under eternal condemnation in the lake of fire because of disobedience. The believers disobedience is handled as a family matter. (Heb. 12:5-13; Rev. 3:19-21) Revelation 3:19-21 is not a salvation passage, it is about a believer responding to divine discipline.

I can only provide information. What anyone does with that information, if anything, is up to them.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 07:57 PM
 
257 posts, read 253,503 times
Reputation: 61
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
People can certainly lose their faith. Some peoples faith is weak. A personal tragedy; anger or resentment related to that tragedy can cause some people who had faith in Christ to lose that faith. But they don't lose their salvation. I gave some very good links but I'll give two of them again. I don't know if you already looked at them or not.

Eternal Security - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ


A doctrine is arrived at by all the scriptures and principles that are pertinent to it. God's policy toward man is grace. Grace is everything that God is free to do for man on the basis of the Cross. It's all about what God has done to provide salvation. Not what we do or don't do. All that a person has to 'do' to become eternally saved is to (after understanding the issue) make a decision to place his trust in Christ for salvation. After that one initial moment of faith you are saved and it's out of your hands. Certainly we are to advance spiritually after we are saved. Of course God commands the believer to grow up. But if he doesn't, God doesn't take away his eternal salvation. God doesn't take back any of the 40 grace gifts He gave the believer at the moment of salvation. Those 40 gifts are the subject of the second link. The disobedient believer only comes under divine discpline in time and can lose eternal rewards. But he does not come under eternal condemnation in the lake of fire because of disobedience. The believers disobedience is handled as a family matter. (Heb. 12:5-13; Rev. 3:19-21) Revelation 3:19-21 is not a salvation passage, it is about a believer responding to divine discipline.

I can only provide information. What anyone does with that information, if anything, is up to them.
I grew up in OSAS country. I've seen the evils of that form of doctrine. You're preaching to the choir. I once believed it myself. But that was a long time ago. And, it's common to hear about OSAS ministers leaveing the ministry to have an adulterous affair, or start hitting the bottle and crack under the pressure. I wonder how many of them gave into temptation while using OSAS as a crutch?
 
Old 01-24-2010, 08:15 PM
 
12,880 posts, read 6,956,045 times
Reputation: 2387
Quote:
Originally Posted by ForHimByHim View Post
I grew up in OSAS country. I've seen the evils of that form of doctrine. You're preaching to the choir. I once believed it myself. But that was a long time ago. And, it's common to hear about OSAS ministers leaveing the ministry to have an adulterous affair, or start hitting the bottle and crack under the pressure. I wonder how many of them gave into temptation while using OSAS as a crutch?
The weakness of man does not negate the principle of God's grace. Eternal security is not a license to sin. But, believe what you want. Your mind is already made up. As I said, all I can do is provide some information.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Miami, FL
35,836 posts, read 12,960,062 times
Reputation: 4463
According to Romans 6 people who are saved are 'dead to sin'. I take that to mean that saved people do NOT WANT TO sin anymore. So, I think everyone here is right because there is no such thing as 'licence to sin' because a saved person would not want to sin anymore, and therefore would have no use for such licence. If you take salvation as a licence to sin, then you were never saved in the first place.

Romans 6


1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 10:46 PM
 
12,880 posts, read 6,956,045 times
Reputation: 2387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
According to Romans 6 people who are saved are 'dead to sin'. I take that to mean that saved people do NOT WANT TO sin anymore. So, I think everyone here is right because there is no such thing as 'licence to sin' because a saved person would not want to sin anymore, and therefore would have no use for such licence. If you take salvation as a licence to sin, then you were never saved in the first place.

Romans 6


1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Don't kid yourself. Everyone sins. And sins often. Sins aren't just the obvious overt sins. Tell a little white lie recently? You sinned. Ever gossip? Sin. Any arrogance? Sin. Pride? Sin. Any malice? Sin. Any judging? Sin. Any lust? Sin. Any self pity? Sin. ...etc

You don't think believers can get caught up in sin? Just look at the Corinthians. I Cor. 3:1. These Corinthians were believers. But Paul had to straighten them out because there was strife and jealousy in the church. Paul tells them, ''And I, brethren (now these are believers. Paul calls them brethren.), could not speak to you as to spiritual men, but as to men of flesh, as to babes in Christ. 2) I gave you milk to drink, not solid food; for you were not yet able to receive it. Indeed, even now you are not yet able. (And why weren't these believers able to understand Pauls teachings-solid food? Because they were caught up in habitual sinning.) 3) For you are still fleshly. (These Corinthian believers were acting like unbelievers. They were walking according to the flesh. The sin nature. Constantly.). For since there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not fleshly, and are you not walking like mere men?

What does 1 John 1:8 say? 'If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

That is what 1 John 1:9 is for. 'If we acknowledge our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You say that no saved person would want to sin anymore. What do you think temptation is? It is the desire to do something that if you give in to the temptation, it becomes a sin. Sin happens in the life of every believer, no matter how mature they are. Or aren't. I refer you back to the Corinthians.

Romans 6 is talking about the fact that the believer is identified with Jesus Christ in His death and burial, (this is retroactive positional truth), and the believer is identified with Christ in His resurrection, ascension and session. (Current positional truth.) This means that the believer, having been redeemed or purchased from the slave market of sin is no longer a slave to sin. It does not mean that a believer can't choose to sin. Even to sin alot. Believers still have sin natures and some believers just give in to their temptations. It is akin to a dog returnng to its vomit.

1 John 1:10 ''If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

If a believer is growing spiritually, and that takes many decisions to learn and apply the word of God to his life, then he will be resisting temptation better than the believer who is not interested in growing spiritually. But he will still sin. The issue is after you have given in to temptation and sinned, then you simply name it and forget it, and move on with your spiritual advance. Believers are still human and still have sin natures and will still sin to a lesser or greater extent. That again, is why God provided the principle of 1 John 1:9.

So no. 1 John 1:9 is not a license to sin. And eternal security is not a license to sin. It is a license to grow up and advance spiritually. Because you will sin.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 11:03 PM
 
Location: Flower Mound, Texas
1,837 posts, read 2,629,591 times
Reputation: 553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
People can certainly lose their faith. Some peoples faith is weak. A personal tragedy; anger or resentment related to that tragedy can cause some people who had faith in Christ to lose that faith. But they don't lose their salvation. I gave some very good links but I'll give two of them again. I don't know if you already looked at them or not.

Eternal Security - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ


A doctrine is arrived at by all the scriptures and principles that are pertinent to it. God's policy toward man is grace. Grace is everything that God is free to do for man on the basis of the Cross. It's all about what God has done to provide salvation. Not what we do or don't do. All that a person has to 'do' to become eternally saved is to (after understanding the issue) make a decision to place his trust in Christ for salvation. After that one initial moment of faith you are saved and it's out of your hands. Certainly we are to advance spiritually after we are saved. Of course God commands the believer to grow up. But if he doesn't, God doesn't take away his eternal salvation. God doesn't take back any of the 40 grace gifts He gave the believer at the moment of salvation. Those 40 gifts are the subject of the second link. The disobedient believer only comes under divine discpline in time and can lose eternal rewards. But he does not come under eternal condemnation in the lake of fire because of disobedience. The believers disobedience is handled as a family matter. (Heb. 12:5-13; Rev. 3:19-21) Revelation 3:19-21 is not a salvation passage, it is about a believer responding to divine discipline.

I can only provide information. What anyone does with that information, if anything, is up to them.
And I can attest to a practical example of this with my sister who is laying in a hospital bed dying of terminal cancer at this very moment. Although she was saved many years ago her faith is very small because she never spent much time with the Lord.. Therefore she doesn't know Jesus much more than the one who saved her. She doesn't know His character, His Love for her, basically just a very shallow relationship..

I still believe she is saved...
 
Old 01-24-2010, 11:24 PM
 
12,880 posts, read 6,956,045 times
Reputation: 2387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raelyn28 View Post
And I can attest to a practical example of this with my sister who is laying in a hospital bed dying of terminal cancer at this very moment. Although she was saved many years ago her faith is very small because she never spent much time with the Lord.. Therefore she doesn't know Jesus much more than the one who saved her. She doesn't know His character, His Love for her, basically just a very shallow relationship..

I still believe she is saved...
Thanks Raelyn. I'm praying for both you and your sister.

You know, It seems that it would be easier to nail jello to a wall then it is to get many people to understand that salvation is by the grace of God through faith alone in Christ alone.
 
Old 01-24-2010, 11:41 PM
 
599 posts, read 554,805 times
Reputation: 136
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Now, I'm not in any way saying that a believer should disreqard the command to grow up spiritually. I don't know how many times I've said that now in various threads. I'm stating a principle of grace. Salvation depends entirely on what God has done for us. Not on what we do. That is the entire reason why Christ had to be a substitute for us. Because we can do nothing to save ourselves and neither can we do anything to maintain our salvation. Everyone seems to think that I'm advocating willful wanton sinning. I'm not. I'm stating that our salvation depends on God. Not on us. One expression of faith, of trust in Christ is what brings eternal salvation and eternal security. Any disobedience on the part of the believer is handled as a family matter. (Heb. 12:5-13)

And once born into the royal family of God, God doesn't disown you if you for some reason lose your faith.
"discontinued faith" = "God, Christ are all bunch of lies"

You don't have to believe all that nonsense. Religion is a coercive system of falsehood.
 
Old 01-25-2010, 12:16 AM
 
12,880 posts, read 6,956,045 times
Reputation: 2387
I'll refer any new readers back to the first post and also look at these links concerning the eternal security of the believer.

Eternal Security - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

The Grace Gifts given at Salvation - Publications - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ

Eternal Security (http://jrcyouth.com/love24.htm - broken link)

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: FAITH A BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVE
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