Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Dear Fundamentalist, how do you know Cain knew murder was wrong or damage his status, grieve his family and anger God? Where does it say God was angry with Cain? Why didn't God warn Adam's family of the consequences of sin before they did it? Why didn't God warn Adam's family about hell as the consequence of their sins?
Sorry but this argument really deserves no response due to one's conscience means "with knowledge".
Quote:
Appealing to the human fallacy, eh Fundy? As if that proves anything! Come on Fundy, you can surely do better than to use such fallacies.
Actually it is a good point, let me break it down for you. The men who translated the bible were fallen and I am fallen also but they are more intelligent and gifted than I. So I have two choices here. I either go with the fallen, smarter and more gifted or I go with me who is just fallen. I choose them.
Also Gehenna was never used in the Old Testament as a place of torment.
Also, "the fire shall not be quenched" does not mean it will burn for eternity. When a house is on fire and it burns to the ground the newpapers tell us the fire department could not quench the fire. Is it still burning today?
The Bible talks about everlasting fire, and everlasting punishment and lowest levels of Sheol, which Jews describe as a place of torment. Also, the new testament talks about the division on Sheol, the with the good side and bad side. The wicked were already suffering in the bad side in plain sight of the righteous, only the righteous could not help the wicked due to the divide which no one could cross. Not only was there a good.bad division, but also different levels of bad, where the really wicked are punished at the lowest levels. Of course Christ went down to Sheol and picked up the righteous, so now only the wicked remain. And then the NT makes clear that the Sheol will be emptied during the judgement day and the sinners will be tossed to the lake of fire, or the eternal fire.
So, the people of those times has plenty of warning about what happens if you are not righteous.
"Nor do they lie beside the fallen heroes of the uncircumcised, who went down to Hell [Sheol] with their weapons of war and whose swords were laid under their heads; but the punishment for their iniquity rested on their bones” (Ezekiel 32.27 KJV bible)
To claim that all the unbelieving dead, even entire cities and nations were physically burned in the Valley of Hinnom doesn't make any sense.
“Son of man, wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit” (Ezekiel 32.18 KJV bible), “There is Elam and all her multitude round about her grave, all of them slain, fallen by the sword, which are gone down uncircumcised into the nether parts of the earth, which caused their terror in the land of the living; yet have they borne their shame with them that go down to the pit” (Ezekiel 32.24 KJV bible).
[quote=Eusebius;12665234Dear Fundamentalist, how do you know Cain knew murder was wrong or damage his status, grieve his family and anger God? Where does it say God was angry with Cain? Why didn't God warn Adam's family of the consequences of sin before they did it? Why didn't God warn Adam's family about hell as the consequence of their sins?
[/quote]
Jesus NEVER EVER used the word Hell as is taught by much of Christianity today...that is mans word. Jesus used the term Gehenna....this term was directed towards the Jews he was speaking to and they knew exactly what he meant by it. Gehenna was the garbage dump....where garbage & criminals were dumped for burial and to be burned. Until you understand Jewish thought (remember the bible is a book written about Jews by Jews) regarding how important burial was to them and how disgraceful it would have been for their bodies to be dumped in Gehenna....you will never understand what Jesus was trying to relay to them. And, as a side note, the prophecy of Gehenna came true for many Jewish people when their temple was destroyed and their bodies literally were stacked in the streets of Jerusalem and later were dumped in Gehenna to be burned.
Nowhere in the bible does it say the Lake of Fire is Hell.....this is an assumption of man. We have never been told what happens to people after they enter the Lake of Fire nor are we told exactly what the Lake of Fire is....Christianity has deemed they are one in the same, yet we are never told this by the bible.
You err, by ignorance of what was written, on all counts.
Jesus used the word hell and the Abyss of fire, the outer darkness. Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; Luk 16:23 And in hell/hades he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Quote:
Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
hades:
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Luk 16:23, Rev 20:13, 14; a very uncomfortable place. (TDNT)
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Mar 9:45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: Mar 9:46Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
Jesus told John to write the Revelation -to the seven Churches:
Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a/thelake of fire burning with brimstone.[it is a very "nuclear" reacting, unending, fire] Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Rev 20:14 And death and hell/hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. Rev 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
The doctrine of the Lake of Fire/the Abyss of fire -is given by revelation to all the nations, by Enoch, who wrote the doctrines of Sheol below earth/Hades and the doctrine of the Lake of Fire, and the doctrine of the Book of Life, before the flood of Noah.
There are demons bound in Sheol/Hades who will be let loose from there to torment men on earth, during the tribulation, as the Book of Jubilees tells. Then, they will be gathered up and cast into the lake of fire at the return of Jesus; just as Enoch first tells, and as the OT and NT -Jesus Himself- corroborate.
You can read Matthew and many other places in the Bible about eternal punishement. Gehenna was indeed a physical place, the Valley of Hinnom, but it became to symbolize the real hell with its everburning fires. Some Jews in the past even thought there was an actual gateway (a door) in the valley of Hinnom, which led to into real hell.
The Jews never believed that bullhockey until they were exiled and started believing the MYTHS of other nations and following their gods. Please go study what other people believed back then and you will see it for yourself.
They knew the consequence of their disobedience was to have death operating in them till they die. There was no eternal hell fire consequence to their disobedient act.
We know Eve was beguiled, deceived, tricked, deluded, (1 Tim. 2:14).
Just because they ate does not necessarily mean they knew right from wrong. All we know is they were tempted and ate.
The consequences of their act:
Eve: pain in child bearing
Adam: has to serve a cursed ground, eat bread by the sweat of his brow, eat his food in grief, getting kicked out of the garden and both "to die shall you be dying" until they both return to the ground.
Could we get past the MYTHS and FAIRYTAILS and do some actual studying people.
ChristyGrl, yeshuasaved me and Finn_Jarber don't get it. They think because their **translation** says "eternal" that people go to eternal punishment.
But let's just assume they are correct. Why did it take thousands of years until certain translations came to tell us God was going to eternally torment people? Why didn't God let us know in Genesis 1:1 since, obviously it is so important?
Why wait for many thousands of years until the New Testament was written to tell humanity He was going to eternally torture humans in flaming fire? Maybe He just doesn't give a damn about all the pre-New Testament people . . . the billions who lived prior to the incarnation of Christ?
And why was the original New Testament Bible written in Greek and God used AIWNIOS (aionion/eonian) to tell us the duration of any punishment knowing full well that the Greeks never took the word to mean eternal?
ChristyGrl, another thing, yeshuasavedme and Finn_Jarber obviously think that if eternal torment or hell is in the New Testament that this proves God told Adam and Eve and Cain etc. in the Old Testament. Hardy har hardly!
The only way that hell can become eternal is if the human soul does not turn to God. However, it is designed by God that all return to Him to reside either in the natural love heavens or the Celestial Heavens. It is entirely up to the soul of the person to get out of darkness and God will wait for them throughout all eternity. That's how much Love GOd has for His children.
According to most christians, all are sinners even when they accept Jesus. So, that would mean that every single person will be in hell whether we believe in Jesus or not. How does that work anyway. I mean if we accept Jesus, as they say, then we are perfect however, most christians accept Jesus yet they say they are still sinners. I just don't get it.
ChristyGrl, yeshuasaved me and Finn_Jarber don't get it. They think because their **translation** says "eternal" that people go to eternal punishment.
But let's just assume they are correct. Why did it take thousands of years until certain translations came to tell us God was going to eternally torment people? Why didn't God let us know in Genesis 1:1 since, obviously it is so important?
Why wait for many thousands of years until the New Testament was written to tell humanity He was going to eternally torture humans in flaming fire? Maybe He just doesn't give a damn about all the pre-New Testament people . . . the billions who lived prior to the incarnation of Christ?
And why was the original New Testament Bible written in Greek and God used AIWNIOS (aionion/eonian) to tell us the duration of any punishment knowing full well that the Greeks never took the word to mean eternal?
ChristyGrl, another thing, yeshuasavedme and Finn_Jarber obviously think that if eternal torment or hell is in the New Testament that this proves God told Adam and Eve and Cain etc. in the Old Testament. Hardy har hardly!
What do you think?
I think it's a FAIRYTAIL.....one that was used to control people. The biggest misconception about this "eternal" crap is that when Jesus told us what eternal life is....it has nothing to do with life after physical death.
Paraphrase in Jesus words: Eternal life is this...knowing God and Jesus Christ. In other words, having a relationship with them.
So what is the difference of knowing God and Jesus Christ.....it's NOT knowing them.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
