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I hear what you're saying, however, there are an awful lot of denominations out there that interpret those words in the bible differently. Who is right and who is wrong isn't something I concern myself with very much.
Then I guess there isn't any point in discussing this anymore, is there? :-)
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Yes. I do believe that there are those whose actions can draw a nonbeliever to Christ. --At least according to the accounts I've heard. (Which unfortunately is the best I can provide you with, short of getting on the phone and asking 'said individuals' to sign on and create a city-data account!)
Even if you did that and they gave their testimonies here, their stories would carry no authority. Human stories and testimonies are not 100% reliable. They can be embellished, the people who tell them might actually think they came to Christ, or important details might be omitted or forgotten. What I don't get is that although you're willing to trust these accounts you are apparently unwilling to trust what the Bible says about the matter?
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Gotchya. Okay, I'll grant you this one. "Condemned" is, in fact, a rather strong word. --But it continues to confound me (time and again) why atheists seem so readily dismissed or down right discredited....As opposed to more peaceably accepted. (In which case, your actions might intrigue us that much more, such that you might convert us!)
I don't see how I dismissed or discredited you. In fact, I never said anything like, "Well, June, this thread is for Christians who want to find out what the Bible says about evangelism. You're an atheist, so you don't belong here." No, on the contrary, I've included you in the discussion by responding to your posts just as much as anyone else's. In fact, look at the other post by another atheist today. I responded to him and began engaging him in a conversation. Edit: Just an additional thought: Sometimes, looking at the way professing Christians on this board talk to each other, I feel like I'd rather talk to an atheist about spiritual matters.
Even if you did that and they gave their testimonies here, their stories would carry no authority. Human stories and testimonies are not 100% reliable. They can be embellished, the people who tell them might actually think they came to Christ, or important details might be omitted or forgotten. What I don't get is that although you're willing to trust these accounts you are apparently unwilling to trust what the Bible says about the matter?
What you don't get is that absent belief in magic . . . there is NO WAY anyone with any intelligence and knowledge of human nature and communication capabilities could EVER accept the bible as inerrant and infallible. Inspired by God is fine . . . but NOT dictated and inerrant. Nothing humans are involved in can ever be infallible or inerrant. Since that is the position you espouse from the beginning . . . your arguments ALL lack credibility.
What you don't get is that absent belief in magic . . . there is NO WAY anyone with any intelligence and knowledge of human nature and communication capabilities could EVER accept the bible as inerrant and infallible. Inspired by God is fine . . . but NOT dictated and inerrant. Nothing humans are involved in can ever be infallible or inerrant.
Well, then, I guess your words in this very post of yours are also neither infallible nor inerrant--unless you are not human. Thus your argument lacks credibility.
Even if you did that and they gave their testimonies here, their stories would carry no authority. Human stories and testimonies are not 100% reliable. They can be embellished, the people who tell them might actually think they came to Christ, or important details might be omitted or forgotten.
"Their stories would carry no authority."
I'll never understand. ~So what would happen if by some stroke of a miracle JUNE woke up tomorrow, or over time, felt that SHE had 'become a Christian?' -Whose to say that (assuming she's on board with the basic, core principles of Christianity) that HER 'testimony' wouldn't be reliable; credible?
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Originally Posted by Jremy
What I don't get is that although you're willing to trust these accounts you are apparently unwilling to trust what the Bible says about the matter?
I trust them because: 1) They are absolutely credible to me, just as the individuals themselves are; 2) They are able to very clearly articulate how the individual that "led them to Christ" was able to do so. 3) Because they are able to support/substantiate in their own lives the "before" and "after" aspects of their conversion; how they changed, in what ways they changed, how their lives are different now, etc. It lines up. (P.S. One such testimony came from a minister. I am hardly in a position to 'discredit' that testimony.)
There are, in fact, some things in the bible that I could say I do, in fact, trust.
--Some.
(Operative word: some.)
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Originally Posted by Jremy
Sometimes, looking at the way professing Christians on this board talk to each other, I feel like I'd rather talk to an atheist about spiritual matters.
We follow JESUS CHRIST because of Who He is, not because we evaluate His words with our human minds, and then on the basis of human thought decide we should. We follow JESUS CHRIST because He is GOD. He rules with all power. His Word is true. We know He will reward those Who obey Him and punish those who refuse Him.
I'll never understand. ~So what would happen if by some stroke of a miracle JUNE woke up tomorrow, or over time, felt that SHE had 'become a Christian?' -Whose to say that (assuming she's on board with the basic, core principles of Christianity) that HER 'testimony' wouldn't be reliable; credible?
Anybody. Why? On the basis of what I said earlier. June's testimony--and Jremy's, too, for that matter--does not and cannot prove that X evangelistic technique or Y outreach method worked. You cannot point to anyone's testimony and say, "See! There's the proof that actions can give a person saving faith in Christ. It worked for Jim" or "See! Jremy came to saving faith because he read a sermon in a book for a high school class during his senior year. That's the way people get saved because it worked for him." The trouble with this is that neither Jim nor Jremy may have come to faith at all. That's what makes the testimonies so unreliable. They're great to hear, but they cannot be used as an infallible basis for an evangelistic technique.
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I trust them because: 1) They are absolutely credible to me, just as the individuals themselves are;
No matter how honest a person is, he can make mistakes. He can overlook important information or unknowingly embellish due to lack of memory.
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2) They are able to very clearly articulate how the individual that "led them to Christ" was able to do so.
Fine, but this does not say anything about whether they actually came to Christ. They may have simply gone through the motions by praying the sinner's prayer when the other person "led" them to Christ.
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3) Because they are able to support/substantiate in their own lives the "before" and "after" aspects of their conversion; how they changed, in what ways they changed, how their lives are different now, etc. It lines up. (P.S. One such testimony came from a minister. I am hardly in a position to 'discredit' that testimony.)
Out of the three, this is the strongest answer and one I'm most inclined to agree with, but even then there is a problem with it. People are able to "act" Christian in public while living in sin in private. How much of their lives have you actually witnessed? How much change have you actually seen, and has it continued and grown over the years? Are you or I even able to verify such things?
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There are, in fact, some things in the bible that I could say I do, in fact, trust.
--Some.
(Operative word: some.)
Operative question: Which ones?
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We're talking.
(And that counts for a lot!!!)
And I'm enjoying it.
But June, there's just one other thing I'm curious about. It's been nagging at me since you started participating in this thread. It's this: If you are so ready to accept these conversion stories as true--even to the point of not wanting to question the genuine conversion of a minister--then why are you an atheist? You're really going out of your way to defend them, which I admire, but it does make me wonder why you still reject Christianity (unless I have you confused with someone else, which, knowing my bad memory, could very well be).
We follow JESUS CHRIST because of Who He is, not because we evaluate His words with our human minds, and then on the basis of human thought decide we should. We follow JESUS CHRIST because He is GOD. He rules with all power. His Word is true. We know He will reward those Who obey Him and punish those who refuse Him.
You wouldn't even know who to believe in, let alone know what he is like, if it were not for divine revelation. Without divine revelation, you would not know any of the following:
The virgin birth
The sinlessness of Christ
His vicarious death as the "Lamb of God" (in fact, we wouldn't even know the sacrificial significance of lambs if not for divine revelation)
His resurrection
God's commands to believe and to repent
Revelation is necessarily antecedent to faith. Knowledge of the content of faith is not produced by faith but is rather apprehended through faith. It already exists in revelation.
There is nothing you or Jremy are going to say to try and put out the light that shines within me. NOTHING
Jremy.....put a smile on your face Shine your light if God lives within, do good for others, bring forth love and peace and try and make this world a better place. This forum too and you won't by taking everything is good and making it negative. That is what I feel from you at present and I have been nice but I feel the darnkess setting in. I will not take all of the credit but I played a part.
But I won't let anyone dim my light! Blessed be to God whose love I pray for everyday and I pray that he continues to let my light shine on.... and hopefully I can assist him with showing other unbelievers the way to him and his love as it is waiting for all of his children.
This is a great approach..... wipe off that frown now smile
There is nothing you or Jremy are going to say to try and put out the light that shines within me. NOTHING
Jremy.....put a smile on your face Shine your light if God lives within, do good for others, bring forth love and peace and try and make this world a better place. This forum too and you won't by taking everything is good and making it negative. That is what I feel from you at present and I have been nice but I feel the darnkess setting in. I will not take all of the credit but I played a part.
But I won't let anyone dim my light! Blessed be to God whose love I pray for everyday and I pray that he continues to let my light shine on.... and hopefully I can assist him with showing other unbelievers the way to him and his love as it is waiting for all of his children.
This is a great approach..... wipe off that frown now smile
How can one take any credit for what God does alone?...And that is scriptural...
I welcome anyone who has a high regard for Scripture and who realizes that the content of the Christian faith (what we should believe) proceeds from that revelation and not from our own subjective thoughts and feelings, to address the topic in this thread.
If one "feels" something and thinks because it gives them an emotional high that it must be from God but however does not line up with scripture that "feeling" must be coming from something else, either ourselves or Satan in order to lead one off into error of Truth...The Bible says to walk by Faith not by sight...sight is a sense...Faith is something known in the mind regardless of how one "feels"...
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~So what would happen if by some stroke of a miracle JUNE woke up tomorrow, or over time, felt that SHE had 'become a Christian?' -Whose to say that (assuming she's on board with the basic, core principles of Christianity) that HER 'testimony' wouldn't be reliable; credible? 
