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It is God's desire that all men be saved. But God saves only those who respond to the Gospel by placing their trust in Christ.
Acts 16:31 ''Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved...''
John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.
The Bible repeatedly declares that a choice must be made to believe in Christ in order to be saved from eternal condemnation. If a person rejects the offer of salvation, then the justice of God has no choice but to judge that person and order him into the lake of fire forever. God does not compromise His holiness by saving anyone apart from the way that He provided. And that way is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.
The bible also clearly shows that one cannot have faith and believe unless they are first renewed by the spirit and given the measure of faith which is a fruit of the spirit so that they will believe.
God will eventually bring all to believe in and confess Christ. Either in this life or after the resurrection. God is the savior of all men, not only of believers but especially of believers(1Ti 4:10). God will have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth(1Ti 2:4). Whoever has no good works(faith is a work of the spirit in our lives without which we could have no good works, and thus who ever has no good works has no faith, faith without works is dead) will suffer loss but will be saved by fire(1Cr 3:15) ...
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John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins.''
Those who die in their sins, the wicked("believers"/wicked servants) and the unbelieving will suffer the fiery judgments of god and will be saved so as by fire ...
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Matthew 25:41 'Then He will say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) 'And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. (This passage is specifically addressing those unbelievers who are alive at the time that Christ returns to the earth at the end of the Tribulation. This is the baptism of fire that John the baptist spoke of in Matthew 3:12. The principle applys to all unbelievers.
The same as above, and also the word eternal in that verse is aionios and did not mean eternal in the time the new testament was written, but means literally pertaining to the ages.
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The same unbelievers are in view in Matthew 7:23. ''And I will declare to them, 'I NEVER knew you; Depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.'
and they do undergo "chastisement age during"(aionios kolasis) even as Israel is now suffering it and has been suffering it for the last 2000 years.
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Matthew 7:23 is addressing all those who claimed, who professed to be believers in Christ, and did things in His name, but they never put their trust in Him for salvation. And so Christ tells them ''I NEVER KNEW YOU. DEPART FROM ME.'' And the place they depart to is the eternal lake of fire.
And they will be saved as though by fire(1Cr 3:15) ... The place they depart to is the lake of fire unto the ages of ages(end of the ages) ...
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John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; BUT he who does not obey (the command to believe) the Son SHALL NOT SEE LIFE; but the wrath of God abides on him.
John 3:36(YLT) he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life(age during), but the wrath of God doth remain upon him(in the ages).'
God will not always be wroth ...
Isa 57:16
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
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In the phrase 'SHALL NOT SEE LIFE', it means exactly that. Will NEVER see life. There is no 'aionios' in the phrase for anyone to falsely claim that it does not mean forever. It is clear. 'SHALL NOT SEE LIFE'. 'NOT' is an absolute negative and means NEVER.
The phrase "SHALL NOT SEE LIFE" is referring to the aionios zoe(life age during) spoken of just pror in the same verse that we as believers have in before we die. This is not eternal life, this is the quality of life we have in Christ, knowing Jesus and the father who sent him(Jhn 17:3) ...
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John 3:16 ''For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him SHOULD NOT PERISH, but have eternal life.
'Whosoever' distinquishes between those who will believe and be saved, and those who WON'T believe and therefore WILL PERISH.
Perish in the Greek is Apollymi, and Christ came to seek and save al those who are apollymi ...
Luk 19:10
or the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost(apollymi - lost/perishing/destroyed/ruined).
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It is God's plan to save those who accept His offer of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, and to leave in eternal condemnation all who reject His offer of salvation.
It is God plan to save all people, and to have all things come together in Christ ...
Eph 1:9-10
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will(thelēma - neuter noun derived from the verb thelō), according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
1Ti 2:4
Who will(thelō - verb form of the word thelēma) have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
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Matthew 7:13 ''Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide, and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter(destruction) by it. 14) For the gate is small, and the way is narrow that leads to life, and few are those who find it.
Yes and the narrow way leads to apollymi, and Christ came to save all those who are apollymi ...
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The Scriptures declare that those who die without receiving the offer of God's free gift of salvation through faith in Christ are lost forever.
The scriptures in fact never once declare that those who die without receiving the offer of God's free gift of salvation through faith in Christ are lost forever. In fact it declare the exact opposite ...
Luk 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Amen and selah ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 02-02-2010 at 02:05 AM..
Until you learn about the Angelic Conflict and until you learn about the fact that God's plan is dispensational in nature, don't even begin to tell me that I don't understand God's plan for the ages or that I don't see the big picture.
Well, since you believe the work of sin is eternal then it seems you don't understand the big picture.
And conflicts among messengers? What exactly are you referring to?
Yes the work of Cross did redeem mankind from sin. But what you say about what Christ work on the cross not benefiting someone until they believe is not scriptural. Neither Romans 2:36 or Romans 4:3 disproves the fact that we were reconciled while we were yet enemies of God.
Romans 5:10
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Nothing that Christ did on the cross benefits anyone personally until and unless they believe in Christ. John 8:24 ''I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He you shall die in your sins.'' If you die without having believed in Christ for salvation, nothing that Christ did on the Cross to provide salvation is applied to you. Christ was judged for the sins of the world. He paid the penalty for those sins. Yet, the unbeliever still dies in those sins that Christ paid for. Again, Christ removed sin as a barrier between God and man. Now, each individual person MUST make a choice to walk over the line where the barrier used to be through faith in Christ.
No one is imputed with the righteousness of God until they believe in Christ. And therefore no one is declared by God to be justified until they believe in Christ.
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Nor do they disprove that in fact our faith is a gift of the the spirit of God, and a fruit as well ...
Faith is a gift of the spirit of God ... it is not derived from the vcarnal nature of man. One cannot believe unless the spirit of God works within them to have faith and believe. All believers are given a measure of faith as a gift of the spirit of God(Rom 12:3), and god is the one who works all things in believers ... Faith in this sense is not the common measure of aith witch is given to all believers, but is an uncommon faith in God that he will eventually work all things out according to HIS own will ...
1 Corinthians 12:4-11
Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith(pistis) by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
Faith is also a fruit of the spirit ...
Galatians 5:22-23
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith(Pistis), Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
This fruit is the common measure of faith given to all believers without which one cannot believe.
Belief IS faith. Faith is trust. Trust comes from the hearer of the Gospel based on what he has learned about what Christ has done for him. Gospel information comes from God. Faith comes from the hearer. God supplies the information and man supplies the faith. Man is commanded to HAVE faith. Acts 16:31 ''Believe (have faith in) on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved.''
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You said ...
The phrase "lake of fire" occurs four time in the bible ...
The only poace in scripture that could be interpreted as meaning unbelievers are going to spend eternity in the lake of fire, and Rev 20:10 ...
Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
However this is speaking specifically of the devil, the beast and the false prophet ...
Matthew 25:41 ''Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels; 46) ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
The beast and the false prophet who are mentioned in Rev. 20:10 are human beings. And they are in the lake of fire for a 1000 years before Satan joins them. Furthermore, Matthew 25:41 says that those unbelievers who are alive when Christ returns at the second advent are sent away into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. That is the lake of fire, rather than Hades. So if indeed Matthew 25:41 is referring to the lake of fire rather than Hades, then not only are the beast and the false prophet thrown into the lake of fire at Christ's return but so are all the unbelievers who are alive at the end of the Tribulation when Christ returns. These are the same unbelievers who are referred to in Matthew 7:22,23.
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Then we read in Rev 14:11 about those who worshiped the beast, and that the smoke of their torment ascends for ever and ever, not that they are tormented for ever and ever or that they spend eternity in the lake of fire.
Now the phrase for ever and ever is in every sense a mistranslation ... The proper translation is "unto the ages of ages" ... This represents the culmination of the ages, at which time all things will be subjected to Christ and God will be all and in all, when there will be no more death, or pain or suffering of any curse on anything. Those who are cast into the lake of fire are saved by fire(1Cr 3:15) ...
The phrase 'forever and ever is a correct translation of 'eis tous aionas ton aionon' or 'unto the ages of the ages'. It is used both in describing God's eternal worth and the duration of eternal damnation. Ages of the ages or forever and ever means 'unlimited duration of time, with particular focus upon the future-always,forever, forever and ever, eternally.'
Greek uses repetition as a way to show emphasis. Therefore aionas ton aionon is literally an even stronger way of stating forever and is often translated 'forever and ever.'' This phrase is used in Gal. 1:5 ''to whom be the glory forever and ever.''--eis tous aionas ton aionon.
The same phrase is used in Phil 4:20; 2 Tim 4:18; Heb. 13:21;1 Tim. 1:17; Heb.1:8; 1 Pet. 4:11,5:11; Rev. 1:6, 1:18, 4:9, 4:10, 5:13, 7:12, 10:6, 11:15, 15:7 and Rev. 22:5. In all these verses the phrase 'forever and ever' is used for the length of time that God the Father and Jesus ''be blessing, and honor, and glory and dominion forever and ever.
In Rev. 22:3 And the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it 5) and they shall reign forever and ever.
In ALL of these places, aionas ton aionon-forever and ever-refers to things that will last forever and ever. Not only does this Greek phrase which again is translated 'forever and ever' refer to the eternal nature of God's reign, praise, glory, etc..., but it is used to speak of torment and punishment in Revelation 19:3 and Revelation 20:10.
Matthew 25:46 ''And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt 25:46 tells of eternal punishment (eis Kolasin aionion) and eternal life (eis zoen aionion). The structure of this verse is one of contrast, and because of this, aionion (eternal) must have the same meaning for both. Since the righteous have eternal life, then the wicked (the unbeliever) has eternal punishment.
This contrast also exists in John 3:36. ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life, but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides (remains) on him.'' The fate of the one who believes is contrasted with the fate of the one who disobeys. There is in this verse, a contrast between ''eternal life'' and ''shall not see life.'' The verse further says that the wrath of God abides (remains) on those who will not see life. You must ignore the context and the contrast that is set forth in order to claim that this is not eternal.
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First of all, i understand the traditional fundamentalist teachings you are indoctrinated by, and i realize you believe what you are saying is true, however show me where in the bible it specifically differentiates between the great white throne judgment and the bema seat ... The theology which teaches such differences is completely based on presumption.
The article below provides many evidences of this fact and is not even written by a Christian universalist ...
The Great White Throne judgment takes place at the end of the Millennium. Revelation 20:11-15. This is the judgment of unbelievers only.
The Bema seat or judgment seat of Christ takes place more than one thousand years earlier and is for church age believers only. This occurs after the rapture of the church which terminates the church age. This judgment is spoken of in 1 Corinthians 3:12-15, 2 Corinthians 5:10 and Romans 14:10-12. Revelation 19:8 speaks of the brides purity after having appeared before the judgment seat of Christ. ''And it was given to her to clothe herself in fine linen, bright and clean; for the fine linen is the righteous acts of the saints.''
The fine linen is composed of the righteous acts of the saints which were evaluated by Christ at the Bema seat to be 'gold, silver, and precious stones.' Then in Revelation 19:11 and following, the saints (the bride-church) returns with Christ to the earth at the end of the Tribulation. All of this takes place more than a thousand years before the Great White throne judgment of unbelievers.
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It is clear to me and many others(the number of which is quickly growing and spreading throughout the church) that the scritpures teach it is Gods will to save all, and that in the end through the work of Christ and the baptism of fire(fiery judgments) he will in fact accomplish his will to save all people in the fullness of times. And everything else is just mistranslation and bad hermeneutics which are based thereon and on bogus presumptions and on ancient pagan religions.
Amen and selah ...
What is quickly growing throughout the church as the end of the church age draws near is that Satanic distortion of and opposition to the truth is increasing. The original lanquages make eternal condemnation clear. So the excuse of 'mistranslations' can not be used.
The fact that many universalists so strongly push this false doctrine indicates not merely that they themselves are deceived, but that they are actively attempting to deceive others. Wolves in sheeps clothing.
Well, since you believe the work of sin is eternal then it seems you don't understand the big picture.
And conflicts among messengers? What exactly are you referring to?
Angels are not merely messengers.
The angelic conflict involves the forces of Satan warring against the forces of God.
Revelation 12:7 'And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. And the dragon and his angels waged war, 8) and they were not strong enough, and there was no longer a place found for them in heaven. 9) And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.' You can read the rest of the passage yourself.
The angelic conflict involves the human race.
Ephesians 6:10 ''Finally, be strong in the Lord, and in the strength of His might. 11) Put on the full armor of God, that you may be able to stand firm against the schemes of the devil. 12) For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.'' Again, you can read the rest of the passage yourself.
The angelic conflict involves 1 Peter 3:19-20 and 2 Peter 2:4-5.
The angelic conflict involves the fact that;
The world is Satans domain: Job 1:7; 1 Peter 5:8.
Satan is the ruler of this world: John 12:31; 14:30; 16:11
Satan is the power of the air: Eph. 2:2
Satan is the father of unbelievers: John 8:44
Satan influences rulers: 1 Chronicles 21:1
The angelic conflict involves Revelation 20:7-10 ''And when the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8)and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth.'' And yet again, you can read the rest of the passage for yourself.
The reason God created man in the first place aside from the fact that everything that God does is for His own Glory, is to resolve the angelic conflict which began with the moral fall of Lucifer, whose title is Satan. Isaiah 14:13,14.
This is the big picture with regard to why human history? And after the angelic conflict has been resolved and time and human history comes to an end, then the eternal state continues on. Believers in the presence of God forever and unbelievers along with Satan and his fallen angels in the lake of fire forever.
The bible also clearly shows that one cannot have faith and believe unless they are first renewed by the spirit and given the measure of faith which is a fruit of the spirit so that they will believe.
God will eventually bring all to believe in and confess Christ. Either in this life or after the resurrection. God is the savior of all men, not only of believers but especially of believers(1Ti 4:10). God will have all people to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth(1Ti 2:4). Whoever has no good works(faith is a work of the spirit in our lives without which we could have no good works, and thus who ever has no good works has no faith, faith without works is dead) will suffer loss but will be saved by fire(1Cr 3:15) ...
Those who die in their sins, the wicked("believers"/wicked servants) and the unbelieving will suffer the fiery judgments of god and will be saved so as by fire ...
The same as above, and also the word eternal in that verse is aionios and did not mean eternal in the time the new testament was written, but means literally pertaining to the ages.
and they do undergo "chastisement age during"(aionios kolasis) even as Israel is now suffering it and has been suffering it for the last 2000 years.
And they will be saved as though by fire(1Cr 3:15) ... The place they depart to is the lake of fire unto the ages of ages(end of the ages) ...
John 3:36(YLT) he who is believing in the Son, hath life age-during; and he who is not believing the Son, shall not see life(age during), but the wrath of God doth remain upon him(in the ages).'
God will not always be wroth ...
Isa 57:16
For I will not contend for ever, neither will I be always wroth: for the spirit should fail before me, and the souls which I have made.
The phrase "SHALL NOT SEE LIFE" is referring to the aionios zoe(life age during) spoken of just pror in the same verse that we as believers have in before we die. This is not eternal life, this is the quality of life we have in Christ, knowing Jesus and the father who sent him(Jhn 17:3) ...
Perish in the Greek is Apollymi, and Christ came to seek and save al those who are apollymi ...
Luk 19:10
or the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost(apollymi - lost/perishing/destroyed/ruined).
It is God plan to save all people, and to have all things come together in Christ ...
Eph 1:9-10
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will(thelēma - neuter noun derived from the verb thelō), according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
1Ti 2:4
Who will(thelō - verb form of the word thelēma) have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Yes and the narrow way leads to apollymi, and Christ came to save all those who are apollymi ...
The scriptures in fact never once declare that those who die without receiving the offer of God's free gift of salvation through faith in Christ are lost forever. In fact it declare the exact opposite ...
Luk 19:10
For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost.
Amen and selah ...
This has all been addressed before. The scriptures put the lie to the claims of those who promote universalism. The Scriptures state that most will be lost. All of this has already been addressed on the other posts in this thread.
Again, this link exposes universalism for what it is.
Nothing that Christ did on the cross benefits anyone personally until and unless they believe in Christ.
Wow. You reduce Christ's sacrifice to nothing with your casual statement above. So it seems you believe Christ didn't actually save anyone. It is instead each individual that saves themself by believing...
Wow. You reduce Christ's sacrifice to nothing with your casual statement above. So it seems you believe Christ didn't actually save anyone. It is instead each individual that saves themself by believing...
Salvation is the work of God. Christ accomplished the work of salvation on the Cross. The word of God states over and over that in order to be saved as a result of what Christ did on the Cross a person has to believe in Christ for salvation. The merit is not in the faith itself, the merit is in the object of faith. The object of faith in salvation is Jesus Christ. Unless a person trusts in Christ for salvation then he is not saved. Faith is the means by which God applies the work of Christ on the Cross to the individual believer. Placing your faith in Christ is the means by which you receive God's offer of salvation. Salvation is conditional. It is contingent upon belief in Christ.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
This is Scripture. This is the word of God. This is truth.
Salvation is the work of God. Christ accomplished the work of salvation on the Cross. The word of God states over and over that in order to be saved as a result of what Christ did on the Cross a person has to believe in Christ for salvation. The merit is not in the faith itself, the merit is in the object of faith. The object of faith in salvation is Jesus Christ. Unless a person trusts in Christ for salvation then he is not saved. Faith is the means by which God applies the work of Christ on the Cross to the individual believer. Placing your faith in Christ is the means by which you receive God's offer of salvation. Salvation is conditional. It is contingent upon belief in Christ.
John 3:36 ''He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.''
This is Scripture. This is the word of God. This is truth.
Mike no matter how much you cut it it , it stll sounds like you are saying that an individual saves himself by believing.
Mike no matter how much you cut it it , it stll sounds like you are saying that an individual saves himself by believing.
Exactly. On the one hand salvation is a work of God. On the other hand, it doesn't actually benefit anyone........... unless a person believes.
What Mike is missing is that it is God who enables a person to believe.
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