Does God care more for the sparrow than those set for ET ? (messages, preacher)

[Jremy]

While I sympathize with universalists because the doctrine of hell is a very difficult one, I find it alarming that the same argument keeps coming up: "How can a loving God punish someone forever in hell?" That is essentially what the OP boils down to.

The fatal flaw in this approach is that it tries to limit God to one attribute--love--while ignoring his other attributes of justice, holiness, and wrath. To do so is to fabricate an incomplete view of God, which amounts to idolatry--fashioning a god that suits our own imagination and understanding because the true living God is incomprehensible or unappealing to us, or both.

Whether eternal punishment meshes with our personal understanding or how we think God ought to be is irrelevant. What matters is what God has revealed about it in Scripture. The doctrine of eternal punishment has been proven contextually and by using the original language in the OP of this thread: The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment (LONG)

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Jremy

While I sympathize with universalists because the doctrine of hell is a very difficult one, I find it alarming that the same argument keeps coming up: "How can a loving God punish someone forever in hell?" That is essentially what the OP boils down to.

The fatal flaw in this approach is that it tries to limit God to one attribute--love--while ignoring his other attributes of justice, holiness, and wrath. To do so is to fabricate an incomplete view of God, which amounts to idolatry--fashioning a god that suits our own imagination and understanding because the true living God is incomprehensible or unappealing to us, or both.

Whether eternal punishment meshes with our personal understanding or how we think God ought to be is irrelevant. What matters is what God has revealed about it in Scripture. The doctrine of eternal punishment has been proven contextually and by using the original language in the OP of this thread: The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment (LONG)

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Jremy

While I sympathize with universalists because the doctrine of hell is a very difficult one, I find it alarming that the same argument keeps coming up: "How can a loving God punish someone forever in hell?" That is essentially what the OP boils down to.

The fatal flaw in this approach is that it tries to limit God to one attribute--love--while ignoring his other attributes of justice, holiness, and wrath. To do so is to fabricate an incomplete view of God, which amounts to idolatry--fashioning a god that suits our own imagination and understanding because the true living God is incomprehensible or unappealing to us, or both.

Whether eternal punishment meshes with our personal understanding or how we think God ought to be is irrelevant. What matters is what God has revealed about it in Scripture. The doctrine of eternal punishment has been proven contextually and by using the original language in the OP of this thread: The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment (LONG)

No it's about fundamental christians thinking for some unknown reason that Justice, judgement, wrath and so on means eternal torment , it's gets more dumbfounding the more i think about it, that such words never mean that before you become a christian but all of a sudden you sucked into the doctrines and traditions of man and you have forgotten the definition of words.

[Jremy]

Originally Posted by pcamps

No it's about fundamental christians...

Just curious: What exactly do you mean by "fundamental Christians"? What is your definition of such?

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by pcamps

No it's about fundamental christians thinking for some unknown reason that Justice, judgement, wrath and so on means eternal torment , it's gets more dumbfounding the more i think about it, that such words never mean that before you become a christian but all of a sudden you sucked into the doctrines and traditions of man and you have forgotten the definition of words.

ummmmmmm...no we don't think that. Eternal torment is the end result if you die in your sins without repenting. If you are going to criticize us, all I ask is you to be accurate.

it's gets more dumbfounding the more i think about it, that such words never mean that before you become a christian

None of the bible makes sense before you become a Christian nor does a belief in the one true God??????????????????????

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Nero777

I know, I used a passage that states that faith comes from Christ. But I keep noting the importance of faith, and you claim these people will be saved without every taking hold of the most important component of salvation as noted by Jesus, Peter, and Paul. Again, these people only believe once they are in God's presence and begin the stages of purification. Where's faith in that?

So do you not have faith that God is doing a work in you now ?


Actually, you still have to explain something then. If God isn't repulsed by sin to the point that He can't bear to be with it, then why did He look away from His own Son while He was bearing the sins of the world on the cross. Jesus took on the sins of the world, and His own Father couldn't even bear to look at Him. Why else would Jesus cry out, "Father, why have you forsaken me". Good try though, but you still failed. Furthermore, you have not even been able to reconcile the passages that both Ironmaw and I used. Both support the opposite stances, yet you haven't even tried to reconcile them.

Tell me what do you think would have happened if God never looked away and not forsaken him ?

We would still be under the Old Covenant.

Scripture also says that we are justified by faith, but most of you guys seem to want to neglect that point. I posted several passages that highlight this, and you guys still want to rely on the whole aion argument even though most of the passages used may not mention of eternal torment, but that salvation came through faith alone. And I agreed with you on the part where salvation comes from God, I used a verse to show that. However, justification comes by faith alone; you presume to say that faith is of no importance for those who are to be eventually restored. They get to see and believe. Salvation comes from God, but then you want to say that our love comes solely from God that we have no will to choose. How do you reconcile what happened in the garden with Adam and Eve? How do you reconcile the fact that we all struggle in our faith whenever temptation or strife comes at us? We do have the ability to choose. I never said salvation came from man, that's God's department. But men are to have a relationship with God; we walk with Him. Relationships are based on trust, intimacy, and love; how can any of this apply if to some extent we aren't allowed to choose? Otherwise, we are just a bunch of robots; and this is a pointless relationship because me and you love Him because He programmed us to, not because we genuinely care about what Christ has done for us. Christ pulls at our hearts, but we have to answer the call.

Anyone i know who believes in UR believes they are justified by faith , but the faith we are justified by is of God.

You seem to want to claim your part in it . Jesus said it's the Father that draws us , the scriptures tell us "he works in us both to will and to do of his good pleasure", that "he will complete that which he started in us", that "he's the author and finisher of our faith" ,that "of our ownselves we can do nothing" and yet you still want to say it's something about us ????

We love him because he first loved us . What is the reason we love him again ??

It was his love that caused me to believe without a shadow of doubt , not the awfulness of my sin , but that he could love me inspite of the awfulness of my sin.

6You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

If the scripture tells us we were powerless , please tell me how there is power in our will not only to live righteously but to believe by our own will ? .

It was by the miraculous power of the love of God that changes a man brings him to repentance and leads him in the path of life.

Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little

I am convinced unless you are exposed to the love of God nothing absolutely nothing changes with in us . It's the very thing a believer abides in and is rooted in. Ephesians 3 verse 17, John chapter 15,1 Cor 13.


14For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15from whom his whole familya in heaven and on earth derives its name. 16I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, 17so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, 18 may have power, together with all the saints, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, 19and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

If it takes the power of God to grasp the awesomeness of his love for us, how much more does this have to be true for those of us who were/are dead in sin ?

How can you dispute this ?

The foundation of the believers life is love and God is Love .

[Shawn71]

all of us Christian Universalists, previously held the belief of ET.

Than I came to this.

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


even when I was viewing the scriptures from the lens of damnation and mans religion God's love and reconciliation for all was in front of me......scripture after scripture.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Shawn71

all of us Christian Universalists, previously held the belief of ET.

Than I came to this.

10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.


even when I was viewing the scriptures from the lens of damnation and mans religion God's love and reconciliation for all was in front of me......scripture after scripture.

There is no argument that God will reconcile all and the ones that believe will receive eternal life.

[Shawn71]

Originally Posted by Shawn71

Savior of the world died for the ungodly.

Savior of all men as the word declares.

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by Nero777

So I am aware; I have heard that argument time and time again. Not to be disrespectful, but I honestly don't believe we are going to ever agree on how eternal and everlasting should be translated in the text. Regardless, the argument doesn't apply much to that verses I used as most of them make no mention of eternal punishment, but refer more to salvation by belief in Christ.

I believe you ... I realize most Christians are both unable and unwilling to believe that aionios does not mean eternal, but it is evident to me as well as many others that such is in fact the case. If you were willing to study everything you can on the subject you might be persuaded. Yet unless you are open to understanding something contrary to what is the traditional teachings of orthodox churches, protestant and Catholic, you will not be able to understand. The history of the word aionios, especially how it is used in the Septuagint cleary demonstrates the fact that it does not mean eternal, as well as the argument that i have given below showing "aionios krino" cannot mean eternal chastisement.

Care to elaborate on the highlighted passage. Again, most of the verses I used didn't refer to eternal punishment; most referred to issues of belief and eternal life. Unless we are saying that eternal life should be translated as "generations of generations" and "eternities of eternities" I really don't see how they regard the issue that salvation comes through faith in Christ, not that Christ died to save all.

The point is the word eternal whether it is referring to life or destruction. The point is that "aionios zoe" does not mean eternal life just as "aionios kirino" does not mean eternal chastisement. In romans 11 we are given the primary example of "aionios krino" in the cutting off of the nation of Israel from the olive tree. We are told in that chapter that though they(Israel) were blinded and could not receive the gospel, and so were cut off(krino - to cut off, literally to prune), never the less there will be a time the nation of Israel will; be grafted back in, and that all Israel will be saved. So this cutting off(aionios krino) which Christ warned the Israelite's was to come upon the nation of Israel for their disbelief cannot be eternal, becuase in eventually they are to be grated back in again and saved. Thus neither "aionios krino" or "aionios zoe" mean "eternal chastisement" or "eternal life" ... In fact they mean "chastisement age during" and "life age during". This refers to the chastisement that those who do not believe will suffer in the ages before they are eventually saved by the final fiery judgments of God, and to the abundant life we have as believers in the ages before we are made immortal. "Aionios zoe" is life age during, meaning that the life that all people will have at the culmination of the ages and at the fullness of times when Gods plan and purpose for the ages is consummated is the life that we as believers in the ages have already here and now. That life age during(aionios zoe) is the fullness of life granted by a knowledge and faith in God and Christ whom he sent to reconcile all things to himself. "Life age during" is the peace we have in him that surpasses carnal understanding, and the hope and joy we experience in the knowledge of the love of god as it was manifest in Christ. That is was we have that the unbelieving world has not ... That is "aionios zoe" ... aionios zoe is the quality of life we have in Christ, not the duration of life, the word used in the new testament for the unending duration of life we will have, that we do not yet have, in Christ is the word "athanatos", not "aionios zoe". "Athanatos" and ""aionios zoe" are not synonymous, but are complementing ...

As far as Jerome is concerned, that is for another thread, and it is a study that is not easily undertaken. It would behoove you to research it for yourself, instead of relying on my claims concerning these things. I will refer you to a book, "The Jerome Conspiracy" ... I do not necessarily agree with everything that this book claims, but it sheds much light of the eventual development of the doctrine of eternal damnation during the life of Jerome and how it took shape through the translation of the Greek writings of the new testament into the Latin Vulgate.

You still need to show me where Scripture makes a direct statement regarding the eventual restoration of all through faith in Christ. I am not arguing the whole everlasting/eternity issue here. I am focusing solely on the part where justification comes through faith in Christ alone. Where in Scripture does it say that those who failed to recognize the lordship of Christ on earth will have a second chance at believing in the divinity of Christ in the life afterwards. As Hebrews states it, we all are to die once, and then face the judgment of God. In Revelation, the whole issue of eventual restoration is completely missing. The story ends with Satan and those not found in the Lamb's book of life being cast down while those who stood with Christ will reign with Him in eternity. The story ends there, but no mention of the corrupted eventually returning to be with the Lamb. That's why I have a hard time believing in Universalism. The passages I referred to focus on the importance of faith in Christ in order to find justifcation. You must believe to be saved.

Act 3:21
Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

1 CORINTHIANS 15:20-28
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.
28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.



Colossians 1:16-19

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


Philippians 2:9-11
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.