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Old 02-02-2010, 02:33 PM
 
Location: RI
19,095 posts, read 9,353,055 times
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It appears that in the mind of many God is more thoughtful towards the sparrow than man.

Do you really believe God can be so intimately thoughtful towards the sparrow , that not even one of them falls to the ground without is knowledge , but his prize creation, man made in his own image , he's created a place of eternal torment for them ? .
Kids stuff you maybe thinking ? but maybe that is what we need to become to understand the heart of God.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:45 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,925,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
No I have never heard many to mean all.....Please where did you get this?
Its quite common in English. Many just means a large amount.

"There are many people in the world." What did I just mean there? I meant there are a large amount of people in the world. Who am I referring to? All the people in the world. Effectively I am saying that all the people in the world make a large amount (many).

The reason many means "all" is because the context was "world". And its quite true there are many people in the world.

Now I might say "many people passed the test". In this case it is quite likely that many does not mean "all those who took the test". It is still possible that "many" could mean "all those who took the test", but common assumption would be that some people failed the test.

Now we go back to romans 5:18-19. Paul just told us in verse 18 that all are sinners and all will be justified. Then he refers to the same groups again as "the many". Does this somehow change the meaning of verse 18? No. It is just a reinforcement of verse 18.

One could also argue he used the terminology of "the many" because he was referring to everyone EXCEPT Christ.


Quote:
I didn't say that. I said Jesus justified only those who exercised their faith in Christ and since the bible says that all men do this then I am justified in saying, not all are justified. Am I wrong?
Yes you are wrong in your outcome that "not all men will be justified", because that point blank contradicts Romans 5:18.

Well since all are justified by Christ (verse 18), and people are only saved by grace through faith, we must conclude that God will eventually grant faith to all. Guess what, scripture also confirms this!:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:46 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,925,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It appears that in the mind of many God is more thoughtful towards the sparrow than man.

Do you really believe God can be so intimately thoughtful towards the sparrow , that not even one of them falls to the ground without is knowledge , but his prize creation, man made in his own image , he's created a place of eternal torment for them ? .
Kids stuff you maybe thinking ? but maybe that is what we need to become to understand the heart of God.
The sparrow doesn't have free will.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:46 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,737,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It appears that in the mind of many God is more thoughtful towards the sparrow than man.

Do you really believe God can be so intimately thoughtful towards the sparrow , that not even one of them falls to the ground without is knowledge , but his prize creation, man made in his own image , he's created a place of eternal torment for them ? .
Kids stuff you maybe thinking ? but maybe that is what we need to become to understand the heart of God.
That verse deal's with God's generosity, that if He takes care of the birds then we being more precious than birds will be more than taken care of. I appreciate your vigour to somehow connect this verse with judgment and wrath but this verse has nothing to do with God's justness therefore you are twisting scripture.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:53 PM
 
193 posts, read 166,691 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
No I have never heard many to mean all.....Please where did you get this?



I didn't say that. I said Jesus justified only those who exercised their faith in Christ and since the bible says that all men do not do this then I am justified in saying, not all are justified. Am I wrong?
'the many' refers to the multitude that were affected by Adam's transgression. Think about how many were affected and re-read the verse.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:55 PM
 
Location: RI
19,095 posts, read 9,353,055 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
That verse deal's with God's generosity, that if He takes care of the birds then we being more precious than birds will be more than taken care of. I appreciate your vigour to somehow connect this verse with judgment and wrath but this verse has nothing to do with God's justness therefore you are twisting scripture.
No it clearly speaks of our value to him as he was addressing any fears we may have , so that our confidence and faith would be in him rather than our fears.

Twisting scripture because i am conveying God's heart ? , you Fundy are twisting scripture to assume judgement means ET , if judgement means ET then the house of God is heading there , because that is where judgement begins according to the scripture.
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Old 02-02-2010, 02:57 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,737,778 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Its quite common in English. Many just means a large amount.

"There are many people in the world." What did I just mean there? I meant there are a large amount of people in the world. Who am I referring to? All the people in the world. Effectively I am saying that all the people in the world make a large amount (many).

The reason many means "all" is because the context was "world". And its quite true there are many people in the world.

Now I might say "many people passed the test". In this case it is quite likely that many does not mean "all those who took the test". It is still possible that "many" could mean "all those who took the test", but common assumption would be that some people failed the test.
You are grabbing air......This is not philosophy. Where do you see examples that many means all.

Quote:
One could also argue he used the terminology of "the many" because he was referring to everyone EXCEPT Christ.
I don't think so

Quote:

Yes you are wrong in your outcome that "not all men will be justified", because that point blank contradicts Romans 5:18.

Well since all are justified by Christ (verse 18), and people are only saved by grace through faith, we must conclude that God will eventually grant faith to all. Guess what, scripture also confirms this!:

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Theology 101....you never take one verse, always read the verses before and after. So let's look at the other verses.

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

(and what are the qualifications that God bring salvation to all men)

12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

deny ungodliness, deny worldly desires, live sensibly, righteously, godly. The whole world does not do this or qualify. Only people who exercise their faith in Jesus Christ.

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 02-02-2010 at 03:10 PM..
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Old 02-02-2010, 03:09 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,925,625 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
You are grabbing air......This is not philosophy. Where do you see examples that many means all.
I just showed you two common examples of how the word "many" is used in language. I can't help it if you won't read or understand plain language.


Quote:
Theology 101....you never take one verse, always read the verses before and after. So let's look at the other verses.

11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

(and what are the qualifications that God bring salvation to all men)

12 instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age,
13 looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,

deny ungodliness, deny worldly desires, live sensibly, righteously, godly. The whole world does not do this or qualify only people who exercise their faith in Jesus Christ.
Those are not "qualifications" of God's grace. Is there now "qualifications" to be saved?!? Of course not. Salvation is a free gift and complete work of God. But you add "qualifications" to it.

Verse 12 and 13 tells us what God's grace will do: it instructs us to deny ungodliness and world desires. In short: God's grace makes people righteous. And that grace has appeared to all men. That is how God saves. God will make all people righteous.

Guess what Romans 5 says. All are justified through Christ, and all will be made righteous through Christ. Amazing how the word of God comes together sometimes.

It is really silly to argue "the many" doesn't mean all, when the previous verse (18) just told us Paul is talking about all, and the same verse (19) tells us "the many" refers to all the people who became sinners by Adam i.e. EVERYONE (excluding Christ).
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Old 02-02-2010, 03:17 PM
 
8,990 posts, read 8,737,778 times
Reputation: 728
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I just showed you two common examples of how the word "many" is used in language. I can't help it if you won't read or understand plain language.
You made that up. Many does not mean all nor does all mean many.....

Quote:
Those are not "qualifications" of God's grace. Is there now "qualifications" to be saved?!? Of course not. Salvation is a free gift and complete work of God. But you add "qualifications" to it.

Verse 12 and 13 tells us what God's grace will do: it instructs us to deny ungodliness and world desires. In short: God's grace makes people righteous. And that grace has appeared to all men. That is how God saves. God will make all people righteous.

Guess what Romans 5 says. All are justified through Christ, and all will be made righteous through Christ. Amazing how the word of God comes together sometimes.

It is really silly to argue "the many" doesn't mean all, when the previous verse (18) just told us Paul is talking about all, and the same verse (19) tells us "the many" refers to all the people who became sinners by Adam i.e. EVERYONE (excluding Christ).
Of course there are qualifications. How do you know if someone is a Christian? You will know them by their fruit. John 3:16 For God so loved the world that whoever "believes" will have everlasting life. Qualifications is the evidence that one is saved, is evidence that the Holy Spirit has come to reside, it is the evidence that God has given that person a new nature.

That is the qualification of being a Christian. Again God only save those who exercise their faith in Christ or can you live a sinful life not give God any respect or worship and go to heaven?
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Old 02-02-2010, 03:21 PM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,925,625 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
You made that up. Many does not mean all nor does all mean many.....
Fundy, there are many people in the world.

Who or what does many refer to in that statment?
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