A place for torment and a place with God (paradise, Eden, hell)
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Lots of threads on salvation for all and torment for none these days. So I want to revisit some of the statements Jesus made and John wrote in Revelation.
Matt. 8:11-12 - 11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt. 13:40-43 - 40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father.
Matt. 13:47-50 - 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Rev. 20:12-15 - 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So it is obvious that somewhere out there, at some time in the future - there is a place reserved for people not written in the book of life - and it probably will be pretty hot.
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Many think that God is too loving to allow people to suffer eternal punishment. However, God never defines His love in terms of who is or is not punished. God expresses love in the following...
1. We should love the brethren. This was both in the OT amongst Jews (Lev. 19:34) and in the NT among believers.
2. We should love God.
3. Loving God means keeping His commandments.
4. Christ's earthly ministry and death.
----------------------------------
Check out these two statements from Christ.
1. He is speaking to the Pharisees.
John 8:20-24 - "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." 22 So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, `Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
2. He is speaking to His disciples.
John 14:1-3 - "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
So to some, they cannot go where Christ is going. To those who are His, He will come again and they will be together. There IS a difference between the two locations. All will not reside with the Lord eternally.
It is of no use to lament who is and is not going to heaven. I have no control - but God has control. The only things I can do is pray, be obedient, and trust Him.
Choose today the Lord while you can. Christ died for all so that He could freely be chosen in order that you live eternally with God. You can also find purpose for your life here on earth.
Lots of threads on salvation for all and torment for none these days. So I want to revisit some of the statements Jesus made and John wrote in Revelation.
Matt. 8:11-12 - 11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt. 13:40-43 - 40 "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age. 41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father.
Matt. 13:47-50 - 47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet cast into the sea, and gathering fish of every kind; 48 and when it was filled, they drew it up on the beach; and they sat down and gathered the good fish into containers, but the bad they threw away. 49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Rev. 20:12-15 - 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
So it is obvious that somewhere out there, at some time in the future - there is a place reserved for people not written in the book of life - and it probably will be pretty hot.
-----------------------------------------
Many think that God is too loving to allow people to suffer eternal punishment. However, God never defines His love in terms of who is or is not punished. God expresses love in the following...
1. We should love the brethren. This was both in the OT amongst Jews (Lev. 19:34) and in the NT among believers.
2. We should love God.
3. Loving God means keeping His commandments.
4. Christ's earthly ministry and death.
----------------------------------
Check out these two statements from Christ.
1. He is speaking to the Pharisees.
John 8:20-24 - "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." 22 So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, `Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
2. He is speaking to His disciples.
John 14:1-3 - "Do not let your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 "In My Father's house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 "If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also.
So to some, they cannot go where Christ is going. To those who are His, He will come again and they will be together. There IS a difference between the two locations. All will not reside with the Lord eternally.
It is of no use to lament who is and is not going to heaven. I have no control - but God has control. The only things I can do is pray, be obedient, and trust Him.
Choose today the Lord while you can. Christ died for all so that He could freely be chosen in order that you live eternally with God. You can also find purpose for your life here on earth.
This is a great post, but I would just switch two things.
1. We should love the brethren. This was both in the OT amongst Jews (Lev. 19:34) and in the NT among believers.
2. We should love God.
Always love God first and love men second. I only say this along the idea of the two commandments spoken of by Jesus. This is where many make the mistake, they place man before God, but think they place God before man. It is a very deceptive error and is becoming all to common. This is why I would make number 2 number 1. But again a very well done post!
John 8:20-24 - "I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come." 22 So the Jews were saying, "Surely He will not kill Himself, will He, since He says, `Where I am going, you cannot come'?" 23 And He was saying to them, "You are from below, I am from above; you are of this world, I am not of this world. 24 "Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins."
This is an example of reading too much into a phrase. You have highlighted the phrase where I am going you cannot come to show that the pharisees are doomed to never go where Jesus was going. But the fact is, Jesus said those same words to His disciples.
John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another
This is an example of reading too much into a phrase. You have highlighted the phrase where I am going you cannot come to show that the pharisees are doomed to never go where Jesus was going. But the fact is, Jesus said those same words to His disciples.
John 13:33 Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. 34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another
I appreciate you catching that - however, if you read a little further,...
John 13:36-37 - Simon Peter said to Him, "Lord, where are You going?" Jesus answered, "Where I go, you cannot follow Me now; but you will follow later." 37 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You right now? I will lay down my life for You."
And then Jesus continues in John 14 as I quoted in the OP.
I wonder how people can equalize "darkness outside" with a lake of fire?
it seems to be figuratively language, Israel's stay in Egypt was described in similar terms:
But the LORD hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day. (Deuteronomy 4:20)
would you inflict endless suffering on your own children?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (Matthew 7:11)
would you inflict endless suffering on your own children?
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? (Matthew 7:11)
Who are God's children?
1 John 5:2 - Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God,
and therefore is His child.
So you are right - God will not inflict endless suffering on His children. You are just mistaken on whom His children are.
So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen 3:24)
In His sovereignty and in His love, God drove fallen man from the garden so that he couldn't partake of the Tree of Life and be eternally sealed in his fallen condition. Notice that the scripture doesn't say that the sword was to keep man from the Tree, rather it was to keep the WAY of the Tree of Life. There was only one way, and the flaming sword insured that it would only be that way that man would come. It was never the heart of God to keep man from His presence, rather it was His heart to prepare an entrance thereunto.
Jesus declared that He was the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE and that no man could come to the Father but by Him. He was the message, the Word come down from heaven and it was only through Him that man would be redeemed from his fallen state and partake of the Tree of Life. From the cross of Calvary He declared out of the midst of His anguish, "IT IS FINISHED" and it is the message of that FINISHED WORK which keeps (tends) the way.
So He drove out the man; and He placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life. (Gen 3:24)
In His sovereignty and in His love, God drove fallen man from the garden so that he couldn't partake of the Tree of Life and be eternally sealed in his fallen condition. Notice that the scripture doesn't say that the sword was to keep man from the Tree, rather it was to keep the WAY of the Tree of Life. There was only one way, and the flaming sword insured that it would only be that way that man would come. It was never the heart of God to keep man from His presence, rather it was His heart to prepare an entrance thereunto.
Jesus declared that He was the WAY, the TRUTH, and the LIFE and that no man could come to the Father but by Him. He was the message, the Word come down from heaven and it was only through Him that man would be redeemed from his fallen state and partake of the Tree of Life. From the cross of Calvary He declared out of the midst of His anguish, "IT IS FINISHED" and it is the message of that FINISHED WORK which keeps (tends) the way.
What do you suppose God's thought process was when He created the universe and hell?
"I will create a beautiful garden of eden with perfect creatures called man! It will be the most beautiful and wonderful paradise filled with all sorts of amazing creatures! But its missing something.... ah I've got it, this place needs an eternal torture chamber!"
"In my all-knowing foreknowledge, I know my creation will fall and sin. I will send a savior, but I know most of them won't accept Him (because of their own free will). So I just have to create this torture chamber to hold them all for eternity. But hey, I still love them! ..."
"Speaking of free will, man what was I thinking giving them all free will? Who knew they would all start sinning all over the place? Oh yeah, I knew it! And don't get me started on Satan... gee I hope free will doesn't destroy heaven... third time's the charm..."
Apologies for my sarcasm, but have you thought this through?
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