Who Is This Babylon? (Revelation, believe, scriptures, Jesus)

[psychohmike]

Originally Posted by caucazhin

knowone ever got rich from trading with Jerusalem
the end time babylon in ISAIH 47 & 48, JEREMIAH 50 & 51 and REVELATION 18
is the wealthiest nation earth at the time and has the greatest military...just read it very carefully..
and Jerusalem was by no means even close to
" the hammer of the whole earth"

Actually...Josephus would disagree with you if I remember correctly. It's been a while since I read it...But nonetheless if I remember correctly he actually said that Jerusalem was quite the trading hub at that time. Also...Consider what James had to say in James 5:1-3.

"Come now, you rich, weep and howl for your miseries that are coming upon you! Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are moth-eaten. Your gold and silver are corroded, and their corrosion will be a witness against you and will eat your flesh like fire. You have heaped up treasure in the last days."

Those that had been oppressing the followers of Christ had become rather wealthy in the last days. And this was the problem. They had put their trust in the wealth that they had accumulated because they thought wealth was a sign of favor from God. But they were hoarding it rather than spreading it. And it was ill gotten wealth.

[caucazhin]

Well I dont agree with you mike Jerusalem is called the city of Peace and it will never be destroyed again and it will be where the Messiah ( The Prince of Peace ) rules from and where His throne will be.
Anyway here is a very interesting page that covers many of the arguments for and against........PEACE
http://www.dabar.org/SemReview/fallbabyprob.html

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by psychohmike

Boy...And they say we preterist's over spiritualize. The generation that Jesus was speaking to was the wicked and adulterous generation(singular).

Actually God has been saying this from the beginning. And I am a partial preterist, so that would not apply to me.

There is nothing in the passage that says..."it is governmental in nature."

It doesn't have to. You must see it, in ALL it's context.

Nonetheless...Jerusalem and it's inhabitants reigned over the kings of the earth because they were given an elevated position over all other people in the World.

Really? Did they know this, or was it a secret. There were many countries with many governments at that time.

They were God's chosen people.

Did not give them any special right to reign over others though. In fact, if you look throughout the bible it was the Israelites who were always being enslaved.

God gave them their position and authority and they abused it, rather than sharing that which God had given them.

Yea, for 400 years they held this position. Until they demanded a king. Go figure...

[caucazhin]

http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ebooks/rise_or_fall/rise_or_fall_of_american_empire_p18-1.htm

http://www.the-tribulation-network.com/ebooks/rise_or_fall/rise_or_fall_of_american_empire_p18-2.htm

[sciotamicks]

HotinAZ...Jerusalem reigned over the Kings of the Land...not earth....translators imposed their futurists presumption into the text....plus the Jewish polity believed that they were "better" than anyone else in neighboring countries, because of their pact with God, one of the many reasons why God removed that position of authority from them. Hence Christ and the partition removed, kingdom handed over to the people that bore the fruit....And they never reigned ove any other naiton, but they did "commit fornication" with all the nations. Revelation screams apostate Israel, form start to finish.

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by sciotamicks

HotinAZ...Jerusalem reigned over the Kings of the Land.

The "kings" of the land were the people who lived in the land, the Jews. Right? The other kings, if you are talking about national leaders, I do not believe the reigned over them, but rather they were enslaved by them.

..not earth..

Yea, I knew that.

..translators imposed their futurists presumption into the text....

Plus sadly they also wiped out using English the proper function of the firstborn, and the headship of the family.

plus the Jewish polity believed that they were "better" than anyone else in neighboring countries, because of their pact with God, one of the many reasons why God removed that position of authority from them.

True, it is arrogance, but was that the real reason? Or was it that the people in the 3rd 4th and 5th generation just forgot the proper roles of the family, and by tis lack of knowledge, they were enslaved or destroyed?

Hence Christ and the partition removed, kingdom handed over to the people that bore the fruit

In other words, it was reset back to Adam's proper role.

....And they never reigned ove any other naiton, but they did "commit fornication" with all the nations.

But this also could be applied to ordinary Christians as well. When men and women of God forget, then they also fall. Romans 1:19-32 screams of this, but sadly people "mistake" these verses to apply to homosexuals, when it has nothing to do with this.

Revelation screams apostate Israel, form start to finish.

Agreed. 70 AD was the total destruction. This is why I am a partial preterist, but the partial is because since Israel was destroyed, and the Christian is now part of Spiritual Israel, then ALL of the revealing of Jesus Christ applies to us as well. Individual, as well as families, as well as nations.

[caucazhin]

Mystery Babylon, in Revelation 17 and 18 is described as a great consumer and superpower, but she is destroyed by the beast kingdom of the Antichrist with its seven heads and ten horns. The beast with seven heads and ten horns is a reference to Daniel's description of the kingdom of the Antichrist, in Daniel 7:23-25.
The Statue of Liberty bears relatively close resemblance to the *****. The statue was modeled after the Roman goddess Libertus, which is claimed to have come from the chief Babylonian goddess Ishtar.Moreover, the only modern city or town to bear the name Babylon is on Long Island.
Babylon (or the *****) is also described as sitting upon many waters (Revelation 17:1). The United States stretches from sea to shining sea and has a trading empire across the oceans and the Statue of Liberty sits in New York Harbor. Furthermore, if the "beast" is identified as the United Nations, then the US might be seen as being its rider, since it is one of the five members of the UN Security Council and hosts the UN headquarters in New York City.
Another aspect of interest is that the United States has "conquered" the historical capital of Babylon in Iraq during the War on Terror. By virtue of tradition, this means that America has taken up the mantle of the Babylonian Empire.

[psychohmike]

Originally Posted by caucazhin

Mystery Babylon, in Revelation 17 and 18 is described as a great consumer and superpower, but she is destroyed by the beast kingdom of the Antichrist with its seven heads and ten horns. The beast with seven heads and ten horns is a reference to Daniel's description of the kingdom of the Antichrist, in Daniel 7:23-25.
The Statue of Liberty bears relatively close resemblance to the *****. The statue was modeled after the Roman goddess Libertus, which is claimed to have come from the chief Babylonian goddess Ishtar.Moreover, the only modern city or town to bear the name Babylon is on Long Island.
Babylon (or the *****) is also described as sitting upon many waters (Revelation 17:1). The United States stretches from sea to shining sea and has a trading empire across the oceans and the Statue of Liberty sits in New York Harbor. Furthermore, if the "beast" is identified as the United Nations, then the US might be seen as being its rider, since it is one of the five members of the UN Security Council and hosts the UN headquarters in New York City.
Another aspect of interest is that the United States has "conquered" the historical capital of Babylon in Iraq during the War on Terror. By virtue of tradition, this means that America has taken up the mantle of the Babylonian Empire.

Let the scriptures interpret themselves. The scriptures tell us that Babylon was Jerusalem. See the original post for an "exegetical" proof of the claim.

Quit looking to your National Enquirer for an answer that has already been answered.

[caucazhin]

Your wrong Jerusalem was described as Sodom & Gomorrah not babylon...
Let's deal with one of the biggest stumbling blocks to the thought that "Prophetic Babylon" has anything at all to do with the ancient city or that the verses which deal with this prophecy in Revelation 17 and 18; Isaiah chapters 13 and 14, and Jeremiah chapters 50 and 51 were fulfilled when Cyrus took Babylon in B.C. 541. As strange as it might seem, there are some who insist that the prophecies concerning "Babylon" (again - Revelation 17 and 18, Isaiah chapters 13 and 14, and Jeremiah chapters 50 and 51) were fulfilled when the Medo-Persians captured Babylon in 541 B.C. - and that these verses have, therefore, nothing to do with events yet future. But there is too much in these chapters which were not accomplished when Cyrus took the ancient city of Babylon.
For example, both the prophecies of Jeremiah and Isaiah, like those of the Revelation, indicate that Babylon [Prophetic Babylon] is to be destroyed suddenly and catastrophically - "in one short hour," NEVER TO BE INHABITED AGAIN!! But when Cyrus took the city in B.C. 541, he took it so quietly and with such little commotion that some of the inhabitants did not know until the third day that Belshazzar had been slain and the city taken. Some years later, it revolted against Darius Hystaspis, and in B.C. 478 Xerxes took the city and plundered it. But he did not destroy it. In B.C. 331, Alexander the Great prepared to lay siege to the once again thriving and powerful city, but the citizens threw open the gates and received him with acclamation.

During the subsequent wars of his generals, Babylon suffered much and was finally brought under the power of Seleucis. In B.C. 293 Seleucis founded Seleucia in the neighborhood of Babylon, and the rival city gradually drew off a large portion of Babylon's inhabitants so that by A.D. 15, Strabo spoke of the city as being largely deserted. Nevertheless, there still existed within the city a large Jewish population left over from the "Captivity." Indeed, we find that the Apostle Peter wrote his First Epistle from Babylon in A.D. 60 (I Peter 5:13). About the middle of the Fifth Century A.D., Theodoret spoke of Babylon as being inhabited only by Jews who still had three Jewish schools or "Yeshivas" there. In the last year of the same century, the Talmud was issued from Babylon and accepted as authoritative by Jews throughout the world. In A.D. 917 Ibu Hankel mentioned Babylon as still being in existence, and by A.D. 1100 it had again grown into a city of some importance. Shortly afterwards, it was enlarged, fortified and renamed "Hillah." In 1898, Hillah contained about 10,000 inhabitants and was surrounded by fertile lands and beautiful groves which stretched along the Euphrates River.

During this entire period (B.C. 541 - to the present) it could never be said that "neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there, neither shall shepherds make their fold there" (Isa. 13:20). Nor could it be said of Babylon - "Her cities are a desolation, a dry land, and a wilderness, a land WHEREIN NO MAN DWELLETH, neither doeth any son of man pass thereby." (Jer. 51:43). Nor could it be said, "... and they shall not take of thee a stone for a corner, nor a stone for foundations, but thou shalt be desolate forever, saith the Lord" (Jer. 51:26), for many towns and cities have been built from the ruins of Babylon - Seleucia by the Greeks, Ctesiphone by the Parthians, Al Maiden by the Persians, and Kufa by the Caliphs. Indeed, in Baghdad today (the capital of modern Iraq) Babylonian stamped bricks may be frequently noticed. But Isaiah is still more specific, for he locates the time when his prophecy will be fulfilled. He calls it the "DAY OF THE LORD" (Isa. 13:9) - that is to say, at the end of the "Great Tribulation." Moreover, he says that when Babylon is destroyed, "The stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light; the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine" (Isa. 13:19; see also Luke 21:25-27). Surely nothing like this happened when Cyrus took Babylon in B.C. 541. In the description of the destruction of the city of Babylon given in Revelation 18, we are told that Babylon's destruction will be accomplished in "ONE HOUR" (verse 19).

Again - this is certainly not the description of events which surrounded Cyrus's taking of the city. In addition, we are told in the same chapter that she is to be destroyed by fire (Rev. 18:8-9, 18) and this is in exact harmony with the words of Isaiah 13:19 and Jeremiah 50:40. Moreover, in Revelation 16:17-19, we are told that an earthquake will shake the city at the time of its destruction. No such earthquake ever shook the city when Cyrus took it in B.C. 541. Obviously, then, the Babylon that is described in Isaiah 13 and 14, Jeremiah 50 and 51 and in the Revelation is not the ancient city of Babylon, but some great "latter-day" nation which by means of its enormous military and economic might will establish its ascendancy over the world. Lastly, there are those who insist that the prophecies which deal with Babylon refer to modern-day Iraq. Indeed, prior to the Gulf War, countless numbers of fundamentalist Christians could be found who were predicting doom for America in its confrontation with Iraq over Kuwait. Such thinking, of course, was MORONIC - U.S. forces sliced through Iraq like a knife through butter, revealing in the process more about the real identity of Prophetic Babylon than most American Christians were (are) prepared to admit.......

[psychohmike]

Originally Posted by caucazhin

Your wrong Jerusalem was described as Sodom & Gomorrah not babylon...

No actually...It's Sodom & Egypt.

Major Premise #1: The city of Babylon found in Revelation no less than 9 times is called the "great city."

Minor Premise #1: Revelation 11:8 tells us that the "great city," is the city where Jesus was crucified.

Conclusion #1: Revelations Babylon is Jerusalem.

Disprove the conclusion of this logical syllogism and you might have a case. But until then...You're just reading something into the scriptures that isn't plainly stated.