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I'm curious, why is so important to either side to believe or not believe it? Would this warrant a modern day Nicene Council to settle the matter?
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"seems like the topic of universalism is dominating this forum, so..."
You're very perceptive, Insane. I was thinking about why it is so important for universalists to completely take over a site.....why is it so important to them when all of mankind, according to them, are going to be saved anyway? I mean, why bother to even talk about it if everyone is going to be saved, right?
Moderator cut: flaming
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-09-2010 at 10:22 AM..
I can see from your perspective quite clearly. I would like for UR to be true more than anything. But it's not....it's not what the bible teaches.
I used to think exactly what you said above here. Then I discovered the scriptures do actually teach it.
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I think universalists have been so horribly deceived that they are unaware of the harm they are doing. You have been deceived into thinking you are doing a great thing by perpetuating this lie. Isn't that exactly how Satan works?
The exact same thing could be said about those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation. You have been deceived into thinking you are doing a great thing by perpetuating this lie. Isn't that exactly how Satan works? You are so horribly deceived you are unaware the harm you are doing. Try thinking it through further from the perspective of a biblical universalist who believes the bible teaches God will save all. Heck, even try thinking it through from the perspective of an atheist.
Believing that God would purpose eternal suffering is probably one of the top two deceptions Satan has perpetrated - the other being that God doesn't even exist at all.
This is the most self serving statement that universalism will deceive one into believing in their heart.....and not surrender to the truth of God and turning from their sensual appetites (emotions) to feed the flesh (natural man)...it is so self serving! WHO is the person that makes such of a statement like that concern for? It certainly is not the people, family, friends, acquittance, but their own emotional self.
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Imagine you have been told all your life that many people you know are going to be tormented for all eternity. This causes you much pain and anguish in you life thinking about this. Perhaps you believe this for many years.
Then you learn it was a lie. No one is going to be tormented for all eternity. Wow this is amazing news, after perhaps believing the opposite for 30+ years! You have true joy for the first time in years. You cannot contain it, and must share it with others! Why keep such good news a secret? It may help others who are struggling to understand how God can be so loving yet allow so much suffering for eternity.
They have allowed their fear (the flesh, emotions) deceive them into not accepting God's justices as it is written in His word by denying an attribute of God's character, God is a God of love and His love brings justice to sin, unbelief,.... to those who will not accept the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
And with their emotional life (the natural man) letting the fear to overcome them and turned from the Living word of God to a false teaching, a delusion of Satan for a false sense of security, a temporal bliss.
Becoming enemies of the Cross of Jesus Christ ! For the sake of their emotions, not walking by faith, but what they see with the natural mind. And not accepting.....
Luke 12:5
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Universalism will not allow the person to turn to Christ and the wounds of their emotions, fear, etc., to be healed....."And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. (1Peter 2:24)."
The Universalism spirit deceives its recipient to not continue in walking by faith with the Lord Jesus Christ, in denying self, and accepting what Christ taught and spoke " He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matt. 10:39)
The spirit of Universalism has no concern what so ever in warning the people of the coming judgment and the condemnation for one who will not repent of their sin, that they will be eternally separated from God.
Mark 9:43,45,47....
v.43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
v.45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell.
v.47 " If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell.
The Universalism spirit today stands just like those long ago yelling out at the foot of the cross to Jesus Christ..... "save Yourself, and come down from the cross!" (Mark 15:30) Mocking and taunting the very truth of God's Son.
We are told by the Spirit of God......
Matt. 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
This Scripture above is no way telling the world that one day God will reconcile all to be save. But warns the heart of those who will not turn from their life of sin and unbelief to the righteousness of God, whom by His justices will one day judge the world and destroy its sin and all who reject His truth, those who are both soul and body into hell.
Take heed and hear what the Spirit is saying about universalism......
2 Peter 4
1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5. and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6. and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7. and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8. (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9. then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10. and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11. whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13. suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14. having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15. forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16. but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17. These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19. promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
Originally Posted by Eusebius sciotamicks, just quit being disobedient to our Lord as to 1 Tim.4:11.
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Originally Posted by Eusebius
sciotamicks, just quit being disobedient to our Lord as to 1 Tim.4:11.
Quote:
Originally Posted by sciotamicks
No, you are being disobedient to the message of coming to Christ.
If the message of coming to Christ contradicts 1 Timothy 2:4-6 and 4:10,11 then it is a lie.
In your system they can't work together. In mine they can.
During this age God is choosing and calling out those who are to be part of the body of Christ believers. The rest are not chosen. But God will save them too eventually as He said He would. But there are judgmenst prior to God saving all. But those judgments cannot contradict God's plan for saving all.
Now sciotamicks, QUIT BEING DISOBEDIENT TO GOD AND TO OUR LORD!
1 Timothy 2:3-6 KJV For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; (4) Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; (6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
1 Timothy 4:9-11 KJV This is a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation. (10) For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe. (11) These things command and teach.
They have allowed their fear (the flesh, emotions) deceive them into not accepting God's justices as it is written in His word by denying an attribute of God's character, God is a God of love and His love brings justice to sin, unbelief,.... to those who will not accept the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
LC - God's wrath is against the carnal nature of man, but you cannot eliminate God's love for them either. God is able to separate the sin from the sinner. Until you see that, nothing else will make sense. When you do see it, everything changes, and all scripture is reconciled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic
And with their emotional life (the natural man) letting the fear to overcome them and turned from the Living word of God to a false teaching, a delusion of Satan for a false sense of security, a temporal bliss.
The wrath of God is real, I for one firmly believe that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic
Becoming enemies of the Cross of Jesus Christ !
We are championing the Cross of Christ, not belittling it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic
Universalism will not allow the person to turn to Christ and the wounds of their emotions, fear, etc., to be healed.
On the contrary, we beseech them to come. ET has another effect on people, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic
The Universalism spirit deceives its recipient to not continue in walking by faith with the Lord Jesus Christ, in denying self, and accepting what Christ taught and spoke " He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matt. 10:39)
The teaching of dying to self brought me to see the restoration of all, because He shows you that life is brought out of death for us. As far as not wanting to live for Him? Remember, He is so magnified to the one who sees Him in this light - I'm not referring to someone who just takes this belief because of hearsay, but one who has truly seen this revelation - He is more worthy to me than ever before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic
The spirit of Universalism has no concern what so ever in warning the people of the coming judgment and the condemnation for one who will not repent of their sin, that they will be eternally separated from God.
I'm continually telling everyone here that judgment will begin with us (the house of God)! How's that for a warning?
This is the most self serving statement that universalism will deceive one into believing in their heart.....and not surrender to the truth of God and turning from their sensual appetites (emotions) to feed the flesh (natural man)...it is so self serving! WHO is the person that makes such of a statement like that concern for? It certainly is not the people, family, friends, acquittance, but their own emotional self.
Moderator cut: personl and insulting (1 Tim.2:4-6; 4:10,11) (note 1 Tim.4:11).
It does not say to teach God will not save all mankind.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-09-2010 at 10:35 AM..
This is the most self serving statement that universalism will deceive one into believing in their heart.....and not surrender to the truth of God and turning from their sensual appetites (emotions) to feed the flesh (natural man)...it is so self serving! WHO is the person that makes such of a statement like that concern for? It certainly is not the people, family, friends, acquittance, but their own emotional self.
They have allowed their fear (the flesh, emotions) deceive them into not accepting God's justices as it is written in His word by denying an attribute of God's character, God is a God of love and His love brings justice to sin, unbelief,.... to those who will not accept the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ.
And with their emotional life (the natural man) letting the fear to overcome them and turned from the Living word of God to a false teaching, a delusion of Satan for a false sense of security, a temporal bliss.
Becoming enemies of the Cross of Jesus Christ ! For the sake of their emotions, not walking by faith, but what they see with the natural mind. And not accepting.....
Luke 12:5
"But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Universalism will not allow the person to turn to Christ and the wounds of their emotions, fear, etc., to be healed....."And He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. (1Peter 2:24)."
The Universalism spirit deceives its recipient to not continue in walking by faith with the Lord Jesus Christ, in denying self, and accepting what Christ taught and spoke " He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it." (Matt. 10:39)
The spirit of Universalism has no concern what so ever in warning the people of the coming judgment and the condemnation for one who will not repent of their sin, that they will be eternally separated from God.
Mark 9:43,45,47....
v.43 "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
v.45 "If your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life lame, than, having your two feet, to be cast into hell.
v.47 " If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell.
The Universalism spirit today stands just like those long ago yelling out at the foot of the cross to Jesus Christ..... "save Yourself, and come down from the cross!" (Mark 15:30) Mocking and taunting the very truth of God's Son.
We are told by the Spirit of God......
Matt. 10:28
"Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
This Scripture above is no way telling the world that one day God will reconcile all to be save. But warns the heart of those who will not turn from their life of sin and unbelief to the righteousness of God, whom by His justices will one day judge the world and destroy its sin and all who reject His truth, those who are both soul and body into hell.
Take heed and hear what the Spirit is saying about universalism......
2 Peter 4
1. But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
2. Many will follow their sensuality, and because of them the way of the truth will be maligned;
3. and in their greed they will exploit you with false words; their judgment from long ago is not idle, and their destruction is not asleep.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;
5. and did not spare the ancient world, but preserved Noah, a preacher of righteousness, with seven others, when He brought a flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6. and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7. and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men
8. (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds),
9. then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10. and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11. whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12. But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed,
13. suffering wrong as the wages of doing wrong They count it a pleasure to revel in the daytime They are stains and blemishes, reveling in their deceptions, as they carouse with you,
14. having eyes full of adultery that never cease from sin, enticing unstable souls, having a heart trained in greed, accursed children;
15. forsaking the right way, they have gone astray, having followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16. but he received a rebuke for his own transgression, for a mute donkey, speaking with a voice of a man, restrained the madness of the prophet.
17. These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.
18. For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality, those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19. promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20. For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22. It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT," and, "A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire."
Sorry, I should have quoted this excellent post the first time Moderator cut: off topic and insulting This is a fantastic post Latte' Chic and I appreciate your efforts and knowledge of God's Word. I would rep you but I'm in rep jail!!! Thank you.
Last edited by Miss Blue; 02-09-2010 at 09:50 AM..
Reason: please be careful with the off topic insults
The only ones being disobedient are the ones perpetuating the lie of universalism. Latte' Chic had an excellent, truthful post and she should be commended for that. You should try reading it and heeding her words.
I addressed each point.
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I was thinking about why it is so important for universalists to completely take over a site.....why is it so important to them when all of mankind, according to them, are going to be saved anyway? I mean, why bother to even talk about it if everyone is going to be saved, right?
Thank you.
